ROLE-PLAYING FOR DUMMIES #4:

How To Keep IC and OOC Separated

[LAST UPDATED 10-21-06; WORKSHOP HELD ONLINE 10-18-05]

*BACK*

 

 

  • Have you ever had moments in your RP that affected you OOC in some profound way?

  • Have you ever had a really bad day OOC, and the entire mood crept up into your RP IC, even when the scene didn't warrant it?

  • Have you sometimes been flustered, trying to remember what YOU know versus what your PC knows (not skills-wise, but factually)?

  • Do you find that you always end up pairing off with your good friend or your Significant Other IC, even when the characters as written really shouldn't be so chummy?

 

It's natural to have these things happen once in a while, but left unchecked or happening all the time, it can really sour the RP experience for yourself and others, whether you bring IC stuff OOC or vice versa. If you are concerned about keeping each in its place, this workshop is for you.

 

 

Most players like to believe that they do a good job of keeping IC & OOC things separated; and almost none of them do as good of a job of it as they believe, or claim to the ST to believe, anyway (if they are the sort to do it on purpose until caught).

In this workshop, we will cover several common ways in which players deliberately or accidentally mix IC and OOC information, as well as present you with some steps you can take to avoid doing it, or at least cut back on it so it's not so bad.


WAYS THAT PLAYERS MIX IC & OOC - COMMON TRAPS:

[1a] "Self-Insert" PC's: This is a subset behavior of "Mary Sue" characters (covered in the next Workshop, #5). Most players do insert an aspect of themselves into a PC; that is natural and in fact may help make the character less cardboard. But this should be done with a very light hand, and only to the limit you can handle things happening to that PC without starting to identify with it or take it personally OOC.

A "Self-Insert" PC is one where that process goes too far, and becomes basically a clone of the player.

Once in a while, doing this as a deliberate exercise can be amusing, but the practice is mostly frowned upon, because players who live through their PC's are too attached to and too sensitive about their PC. They do not handle attacks, problems, adversity or deaths for that PC, with any maturity and detachment.

They are the sort of players that moronic propaganda whores like Jack Chick write Anti-Roleplaying cartoons about, and the public believes it and fears he is right because of stuff that players like that do. Don't be one of those players. It's lame and you need professional help.

[1b] Idealized Self-Insert PC's: Sometimes, a "Self-Insert" PC is not so much a clone of ourselves, as it is a basic construct of ourselves, idealized and modified to be who we wish we were, often containing an unrealistic amount of perfection in traits and areas the player lacks, and has issues about OOC. This can be looks, intelligence, skills, finances, social status, importance, or related areas. It's not a crime if you have some similarities to your PC. In fact for less advanced players it is probably a good idea to do so.

However, where it becomes obnoxious is in one of two extremes:

  • Where every single character you have, shares a major specific class or trait, especially when it does not fit the rest of the concept very well. If you seem to continually remake the same character over and over, just "filing off the serial numbers," as it were, then you are guilty of this.
  • Or, where your PC is clearly some kind of "One-trick pony" to fulfill some OOC obsession the player has. Two of the biggest culprits of this mistake are sexual in nature: PC's designed specifically to romance another PC, and PC's who are bisexual slutty women, always run by male players, who are clearly fixated on processing some personal sexual fantasy issues (these players spend HOURS cybering as RP and not much else).

The true test for either problem is this: does your PC have a clear and role-playable purpose OTHER THAN this trait in question? Could it be removed, and the PC still be valid and playable? If not, you are probably guilty of doing the above.


[2a] Romance, Sex & Relationships: Yes. Sure. There are, legitimately, love, sex and relationships in The World of Darkness. But remember, they should be the love, sex & relationships of your PC, not of the player, and often the two are not the same at all. This can get tricky because while most players don't get angry or violent when they are in a combat scene, there is something more intimate and vulnerable about a relationship scene that can affect you emotionally OOC. It's very common to draw from your own sexual experiences or tastes to craft such RP, so that can leave a player feeling very vulnerable about that scene, as if their personal business is on display.

Just as certain songs, or certain movies or TV shows might elicit an emotional response, some RP may get you OOC caught up in the drama of the moment. Probably a sign it was a good scene. This is fairly common, and even normal, but you just have to watch yourself, step back and remember that when the scene is over with, so are all the warm fuzzies and "hawtt luvvins."

[2b] Fixations on IC Love Interests: You have no romantic ties to another player OOC just because your characters do, and conversely you should not expect or insist on every character you have hooking up IC with those of your OOC love interest just because you are together OOC, as friends or as anything else. Two of the biggest mistakes that players make in this situation are trying to force an OOC paramour to be one IC, and vice versa. Just because you have a thing for another player OOC, does not at all mean that your PC must, should, or even CAN, feel the same way.

On that note, if you are the Significant Other of another player, don't stalk or harass other PC's that interact with your SO's PC, IC or OOC. If you are a player with an overly possessive SO who is prone to this sort of stalking thing, please get your relationship crap sorted out on your own time, not ours. Keep it out of the game.

Just because your PC's hook up, screw or have a romance IC does not mean the other player wants you romantically, belongs to you, or even wants to get involved in your OOC real life in any way. A quality role-player will be able to run characters of vastly different ages, races, or genders than the player is OOC. That lovely Fae maiden, or sexy androgynous goth boi vampire you are lusting after, could be run by some 50 year old, obese, balding married dude with a hairy back, for all you know.

[2c] Exclusionary RP: Also, do not become the sort of player who will only role-play with the same person and ignores everyone else, even though your PC should be talking to them. The ST's will intervene if that becomes a problem, and it could result in being banned from here. The ST's put a lot of work into connecting story elements and plot devices, and when you park your PC in a side channel with its pants down all night, the RP that actually MATTERS is not getting done.

[2d] Playing Out Sexual Scenes - Yes or No?: There are legitimately times when sexuality comes into play in WOD RP. It may be rare, but they do exist. And sometimes, the mechanics of a scene need to be determined for RP purposes; you could be drugged or poisoned in the act, embraced by a Supernatural lover or predator, implanted with a device, ovulating, or other things that are simply about game mechanics and rules. However, some people are not comfy with playing this out, and some are. Some sexual scenes actually have plot value, and some use it just as an excuse to cyber. It's not right or wrong to play it out, but please show consideration for the other player and when in doubt, defer to the limits of the more shy of the two (or more) of you. Remember, this is the World of Darkness. We are all so comfy playing out all kinds of violence, abuse and crime, and yet sex makes some people skittish. Something to think about.

One of the most important decisions you need to make for yourself as a player, that will help you make good choices about RP'ing relationships, is to choose which side of the fence you are on with Role-playing vs. Reality. There are two schools of thought on this. Again, as with playing it out in detail or not, there is no "Right" answer; what matters is that you need to address your choice with those you RP romance and sex with IC.

The two choices are:

  • [a] Role-playing has no relevance to real life; my character does these things, not me, and they have no meaning to me as a player, nor are they relevant to my real life relationships and sexual life. Or,
  • [b] I understand that Role-playing is just a fantasy, but playing out romantic things with someone else is too emotionally intense and involved for me. I could become as jealous, or enamored over the scene as I might if these things happened in real life. So, I would rather not do them with someone I'm not involved with OOC.

The second one sounds like it is a mixing IC & OOC issue of another kind, but think about this: some relationships do not approve of partners having "Cybersex" and would consider such an action infidelity, so even if you pretend to be some supernatural creature, the things you type about are really no different in content to some people, than cybering a stranger online OOC and pretending to be something. It's a big deal to some relationships, and not to others. Again, this is not picking a side or judging; you just need to decide which camp you are in, and keep your IC RP partners advised of this, to avoid hard feelings. Don't judge which side they picked; just pick yours and make sure that's addressed with those you RP with in this way.


[3] Skills & Knowledge Mixing: Another common trap players fall into (and this is often accidental), is acting or reacting to something out of what you as a player know OOC, instead of how your PC should react IC. Players sometimes lose track of the minutiae of what they do not know or cannot do very well, especially if it's not something you'd put on your background sheet or occurred after the fact. There's not much of a fancy trick to fixing this except to make a deliberate point to clear your mind and center yourself before going IC. Remember who you are portraying, and react out of your stats, not your OOC knowledge. If your PC does not know a thing, you must act that way even if OOC you are an expert.

I guess the only real advice here is to be diligent, or maybe to write some more of this stuff down on your background sheet for reference (who and what you do, and do not, know). Or, this may be a time to concede to playing a PC a bit more like yourself until such time that you feel you are ready to branch out into playing someone very unlike yourself. Don't get nasty if someone questions how you know something or why you reacted a certain way. Just make sure you have a sensible answer and give it to them. It's nothing personal.


[4a] Mood, Attitude & Demeanor Mixing: This is not as much of a common problem, but take care that it stays that way. Occasionally, players who are having a bad, or even a very good day, IRL, sometimes lose track of the emotional state and mood of their PC. They can be snotty or surly IC when it's not called for in the RP, due to being depressed or angry OOC. Or conversely, they might be too light-handed with a PC who was written as more dour and anti-social, because they are all bouncy IRL from a good day and their RP is too gregarious, reflecting that OOC mood.

[4b] Attention Whoring IC to Fill Some OOC Neediness: This is a complicated problem, and requires players to be very self-aware people OOC, which many are not. This situation is where you may be in a mood OOC for attention, affection, comfort or validation, and that need is unmet and becomes so great that it starts twisting your RP into seeking it out from other PC's, and trying way too hard to get it, especially when the PC would not normally do so. Just be aware if you catch yourself doing it, or fellow players or an ST make a comment to that effect to you. Check in mentally with yourself if that should happen, and see if you are pushing your PC into getting all the attention or acknowledgment and there's no IC cause for it, or you're inflating one to get the gratification OOC.


[5] Things You Hear About or Overhear OOC, Being Used IC: The things you end up hearing about OOC, cannot be used in game. For example, if someone is in the channel and they run off at the mouth, "So, I'm building a vampire who ghouled the chief of police...", you must wipe that out of your mind and not react to either character about it until you earn that information in role-play. You might overhear the race, faction, powers or plans and plotting of other characters.

This is the reason that the ST's are so anal about players discussing these things in the public channel; it becomes difficult to just pretend you didn't hear something, and we have found in our experience that even accidentally, it does color people's role-play. You may find yourself accidentally reacting to what you know in some subtle way. So we feel the best policy is to keep things OOC strictly on a need-to-know basis.


And now the part many of you have been waiting for - How do you stop doing these things wrong and fix it?

 

1. AVOID SELF-INSERTING: Stay away from "Self-Insertion" PC's. Not so much characters who might share a few skills or knowledges with you, but more so PC's who are quite clearly, to everyone else, either a clone of yourself or a fantasy fixation mechanism.

2. AVOID ROMANCE DRAMA: If you are OOC self-aware and honest enough to know that you have OOC romance issues, don't write a PC that lends itself easily to getting involved in them. Make a PC that is not very sexy, or that is asexual. Remind yourself that PC's who might seem very sexy, may not be run by someone you would drool over OOC. Make sure you are in integrity with your real life partner.

3. KEEP IT SIMPLE: If you know that you are not very good at keeping straight what you personally know OOC versus what your PC knows IC, build a PC with skills that you know OOC, for now, and lay off anything really exotic.

4. AVOID RP WHEN IN AN OOC CRISIS: If your moods, health or other IRL issues are seriously screwing up your RP, log off for 10 minutes and go get your head screwed on straight. Get some water. Go outside. Take a pill. Get a snack. Take a quick shower. Whatever it is you do to collect yourself.

Then, when you are calmed down, come back and finish your scene, so that you are not acting out your IRL emotions in places that IC they do not belong. Or if you can't function, log back on and at least show the courtesy of letting people know you need more time. Set and agree to a time to reconvene. On the other hand, don't be a drama llama and ruin or hold up scenes because of whining or sulking, either.

5. KEEP YOUR PRIVACY, IF THAT HELPS: An optional choice that some players prefer, is to remain on an impersonal basis OOC with other players, keeping private and identifying information to themselves. This is a situation that is unique to Online RP, with the possible loose exception of Walk-in TableTop or LARP games in public places such as a convention.

Some people like to be friendly with other players as one does in a regular tabletop game, and there is nothing wrong with that, but players who keep a distant privacy online tend largely not to have so many issues with things like OOC obsessions about them from other players, or OOC drama being dragged into the channel because nobody knows your business. This approach of staying detached works out for some people, and makes others uncomfortable. It's not a rule, just a suggestion or option.

6. BE RESPONSIBLE ABOUT YOUR HEALTH: This becomes our business, when players have health problems that change their moods online and makes them react inappropriately or be out of control and mess up the RP. Everyone has a bad night; this passage refers to ongoing problems.

If you are on any kind of medications for depression, bi-polar disorder, ADD, or other conditions which drastically impact your mood, DO NOT RP when unmedicated or in any kind of a medical crisis related to this condition. We can't sit here and monitor your health to know if you are in any shape to RP, and if you're not we have no choice but to remove you from play.

7. DO NOT RP WHILE CHEMICALLY IMPAIRED OR SLEEP-DEPRIVED: Do not ever RP drunk, stoned, or heavily medicated with something that makes you out of it. Severely sleep-deprived may even subjectively qualify - if you are very tired, excuse yourself from the RP or tell an ST. Better yet, get a nap in ahead of time, if you have to be on later and you already know you're sleepy.

We're not in the business of trying to figure out how coherent you are, and if you do something really stupid or obnoxious, IC or even OOC, while messed up, you're accountable for that. So please just don't even set yourself up in such a situation. "I was drunk/stoned, it shouldn't count" does not fly here.

8. KEEP YOUR CHARACTER INFO PRIVATE: Just don't even invite the chance for people to metagame by accident, by KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT. Don't sit in channel and discuss things OOC about your PC with other players. I am sure we all like to believe that one another are honest, friendly people, but [a] some players aren't, sadly, and [b] some well meaning players are easily flustered and just have a hard time keeping stuff sorted out, and you just burden them by spilling info they shouldn't know, forcing them to have to be more diligent about ignoring it IC. So it's just better for everyone that you obey our rule about not discussing character information in the channel that is private.

Obviously this does not pertain to information that is public knowledge, such as your PC is known to be a teacher at Blot High School, or a lawyer or anyone with a job where their name is in the phone book for that function, for example. It also does not pertain to obvious and innocuous information (that can't be used by another player to harm your PC in some way) such as "my character is a girl" or "my character is a blonde."

Types of things you should shut up about in public include, for example: Where your PC lives IC. What your PC plans to do about (blot). How much money your PC makes and how they make it. What supernatural race your PC is. Quirks, habits, fears, phobias, derangements, or other weaknesses your PC has. Where your PC plans to go tonight and whom they will meet up with (this is just a screaming invitation for players who were not involved and otherwise were not planning to go there, to butt into your scene to start crap with your PC. Only tell the PCs who are supposed to be there; anyone else can figure out IC where you are). Weapons you carry. And so forth. If you need to discuss these with an ST, do it in message or a private OOC channel.


PLAYER NOTES AND COMMENTS FROM THE ACTUAL WORKSHOP (10/18-19/05):


Session Start: Tue Oct 18 19:34:27 2005
Session Ident: #11thHourClassroom
[19:35] *** ^ST1 changes topic to 'OOC Roleplaying Coaching Workshop. Tonight's topic (#4) - How to Keep IC & OOC Separated. See: http://www.digitalgothic.net/Rules/nwodicooc.htm'
[20:41] * Player1 gets up from her desk and goes over putting an apple on Ice's desk before returning to her seat.
[20:41] (@^ST1): ok you guys ready?
[20:41] (@^ST1): hahahah butt kisser
[20:41] (@Player1): damn skippy :)
[20:42] * Player2 plops down his bag in a front row corner seat.
[20:42] * ^ST1 sits on the front of her desk and swings her bare feet
[20:43] (@^ST1): ok
[20:43] * Player3 walks to the back of the room and pulls his hood over his face
[20:43] (@^ST1): These are somewhat rhetorical questions but if you feel so moved to comment, it's ok.

[20:44] (@^ST1): Have you ever had moments in your RP that affected you OOC in some profound way?
[20:44] (@^ST1): Have you ever had a really bad day OOC, and the entire mood crept up into your RP IC, even when the scene didn't warrant it?
[20:44] * Player2 leans back in his seat twirling a pencil through his fingers idly.
[20:44] (@^ST1): Have you sometimes been flustered, trying to remember what YOU know versus what your PC knows (not skills-wise, but factually)?
[20:44] * Player1 yes yes and yes.
[20:45] (@^ST1): Do you find that you always end up pairing off with your good friend or your Significant Other IC, even when the characters as written really shouldn't be so chummy?
[20:45] * Player2 hehs
[20:45] (@^ST1): It's natural to have these things happen once in a while, but left unchecked or happening all the time, it can really sour the RP experience for yourself and others, whether you bring IC stuff OOC or vice versa. If you are concerned about keeping each in its place, this workshop is for you.
[20:46] (@^ST1): Most players like to believe that they do a good job of keeping IC & OOC things separated; and almost none of them do as good of a job of it as they believe, or claim to the ST to believe, anyway (if they are the sort to do it on purpose until caught).
[20:47] (@^ST1): In this workshop, we will cover several common ways in which players deliberately or accidentally mix IC and OOC information, as well as present you with some steps you can take to avoid doing it, or at least cut back on it so it's not so bad.
[20:47] (@^ST1): Any questions, or comments before I go on?
[20:47] *** Player1 sets mode: +v Player4
[20:47] (@^ST1): Hi Player4. I just posted the intro (which is on the web site in the topic anyway)
[20:47] (+Player4): Thanks, beby.
[20:47] (@^ST1): thats all you missed, I'm pausing for questions briefly
[20:48] (@^ST1): ok moving on then

[20:48] (@^ST1): WAYS THAT PLAYERS MIX IC & OOC - COMMON TRAPS:
[20:48] (@^ST1): [1a] "Self-Insert" PC's: This is a subset behavior of "Mary Sue" characters (covered in the next Workshop, #5). Most players do insert an aspect of themselves into a PC; that is natural and in fact may help make the character less cardboard. But this should be done with a very light hand, and only to the limit you can handle things happening to that PC without starting to identify with it or take it personally OOC.
[20:48] (@^ST1): did that cut off?
[20:48] (+Player4): nope
[20:48] (@^ST1): k
[20:48] (@^ST1): A "Self-Insert" PC is one where that process goes too far, and becomes basically a clone of the player.
[20:48] (@^ST1): Once in a while, doing this as a deliberate exercise can be amusing, but the practice is mostly frowned upon, because players who live through their PC's are too attached to and too sensitive about their PC. They do not handle attacks, problems, adversity or deaths for that PC, with any maturity and detachment.
[20:49] (@^ST1): They are the sort of players that moronic propaganda whores like Jack Chick write Anti-Roleplaying cartoons about, and the public believes it and fears he is right because of stuff that players like that do. Don't be one of those players. It's lame and you need professional help.
[20:49] * ^ST1 pauses for questions & comments
[20:50] (@^ST1): anyone?
[20:50] * Player2 scribbles a few notes and then goes back to listening and watching the teacher's bare feet kick slowly in the air.
[20:50] (@^ST1): ok moving on

[20:51] (@^ST1): [1b] Idealized Self-Insert PC's: Sometimes, a "Self-Insert" PC is not so much a clone of ourselves, as it is a basic construct of ourselves, idealized and modified to be who we wish we were, often containing an unrealistic amount of perfection in traits and areas the player lacks, and has issues about OOC.
[20:51] (@^ST1): This can be looks, intelligence, skills, finances, social status, importance, or related areas. It's not a crime if you have some similarities to your PC. In fact for less advanced players it is probably a good idea to do so.
[20:51] (@^ST1): However, where it becomes obnoxious is in one of two extremes:
[20:51] (@^ST1): [1] Where every single character you have, shares a major specific class or trait, especially when it does not fit the rest of the concept very well. If you seem to continually remake the same character over and over, just "filing off the serial numbers," as it were, then you are guilty of this
[20:52] (@^ST1): [2] Or, where your PC is clearly some kind of "One-trick pony" to fulfill some OOC obsession the player has. Two of the biggest culprits of this mistake are sexual in nature: PC's designed specifically to romance another PC, and PC's who are bisexual slutty women, always run by male players, who are clearly fixated on processing some personal sexual fantasy issues (these players spend HOURS cybering as RP and not much else).
[20:52] (@^ST1): The true test for either problem is this: does your PC have a clear and role-playable purpose OTHER THAN this trait in question? Could it be removed, and the PC still be valid and playable? If not, you are probably guilty of doing the above.
[20:52] * ^ST1 pauses again for comments
[20:53] (@^ST1): either you guys have a great handle on this topic, or you're all AFK ;p
[20:53] * Player2 looks around before raising a hand
[20:53] (+Player5): example of one trait please?
[20:53] (@^ST1): sure, Trey?
[20:53] (@^ST1): Ok Trey then Neph
[20:54] * Player2 goes first. "About the filing off serial number's characters: Is this so much a problem if the characters are.. well decent and acceptable?
[20:54] (@^ST1): Yes.
[20:54] (+Player2): *nods* And how similar is. "Similar"?
[20:54] (@^ST1): If you continually write the same PC over and over again it doesn't matter how legal they are, it becomes bad RP
[20:55] (@^ST1): when people look at it and most of them who knew the first PC go "Oh that's just vander but he's Garou now (or Demon or Fae) or whatever
[20:55] (@^ST1): Its subjective, like "What is art" but by and large you know when it's going on
[20:55] (@^ST1): a FEW traits is one thing
[20:55] (@^ST1): when it's pretty much the twin brother of the player or of a prior PC, it's getting silly
[20:56] (+Player4): How do you know if you're guilty of this?
[20:56] (+Player2): *Nods*
[20:56] (@^ST1): I'll get to that in a sec Player4. Neph, you had a question: example of such a trait
[20:56] (+Player4): ooh, sorry.
[20:56] (+Player5): no go ahead
[20:56] (@^ST1): Ok let's say the player is some kinda guy who has a problem getting dates.
[20:56] (@^ST1): SO all his PC's are big womanizers and studs
[20:57] (@Player1): or when a girl always plays the pretty blond busty sex-kitten?
[20:57] (@^ST1): So I would say to him: Can your PC be the original concept with that removed? (Example: can your PC be a Brujah Scholar without being a pussy magnet. Of course he can. Hopefully the player will recognize this and let it go_
[20:57] (@^ST1): Yes.
[20:57] (+Player5): so merits, flaws, skills, etc being similar isn't that much of a problem then?
[20:57] (@^ST1): Or someone is always mega mega smart like Int 5-6
[20:58] (@^ST1): SIMILAR is fine but I would say if they are more then 25% identical to a prior PC, knock it off
[20:58] (@^ST1): thatís a ballpark
[20:58] (@^ST1): IE: Less than half identical. Change something major in them
[20:58] (+Player5): what if mechanically they are similar but they are played differently
[20:58] (@^ST1): race, genre, gender, age, etc
[20:58] (@^ST1): Uhm... if they are mechanically similar how COULD you play them differently if you are playing them correctly?
[20:59] (@Player1): they why have them be so similar?
[20:59] (@^ST1): you have to play your stats
[20:59] (@^ST1): if the stats are the same the RP will be too
[20:59] (+Player5): a character always has high physical attributes
[20:59] (+Player5): so this character is usually combat oriented
[20:59] (@^ST1): If I see that all the time I'm going to call the player out for being a combat whore
[20:59] (@^ST1): and the burden will be on them to prove its not
[20:59] (@^ST1): one warrior is fine
[20:59] (+Player5): but the player may approach situations differently from character to character
[20:59] (@^ST1): Four ass kickers in a row is going to get my no no face
[21:00] (@^ST1): Iím not talking about how they are RP'd
[21:00] (@^ST1): Iím talking about design here, and design that is clearly intended to process some OOC issue
[21:00] (+Player5): ok
[21:00] (@^ST1): If more than one person says "That's a Johannes clone" or something, (insert name of prior PC here), you are doing something wrong
[21:01] (@^ST1): these things are easily fixed without destroying the integrity of the char concept
[21:01] (@^ST1): You may have two fighters that fight different ways
[21:01] (@^ST1): one might be a brute and one might be a martial artist, very eastern and calm
[21:01] (@^ST1): but
[21:01] (@^ST1): You should be able to tell the PC's apart in design
[21:01] (@^ST1): SOMEHOW.
[21:02] (@^ST1): Did that cover it?
[21:02] (+Player5): yes
[21:02] (@^ST1): ok Player4 your question
[21:02] (+Player4): How do you know if you're guilty?
[21:03] (@^ST1): If the ST makes a comment or several players do, is one way.
[21:03] * Player4 nods.
[21:03] (+Player4): Gotcha.
[21:03] *** Player4 is now known as Player4
[21:03] (@^ST1): Most of the time, the ST is going to say something at inception. Now... I have had players write PC's that were different on paper
[21:03] (@^ST1): and not RP them differently, they have one RP mode.
[21:04] (@^ST1): Not to embarrass you Doug but if I could use you as an example here... cuz it fits the lesson
[21:04] (@^ST1): Doug's used to running warriors.
[21:04] (@^ST1): He's got an intellectual character and the character often reacts just like Darren does.
[21:04] (@^ST1): He's having trouble separating their personalities.
[21:04] (@^ST1): On paper they are like night and day but in the RP they arenít, so much. Itís getting better though.
[21:05] (+Player4): I understand.
[21:05] (@^ST1): IF you are concerned you might be doing it, just ask
[21:06] (@^ST1): ask a couple ST's, if they read it and they donít go "Oh that's a Player4 clone" then you should be okay
[21:06] (+Player5): how can you tell on paper, if they rp the same as the example above?
[21:06] (@^ST1): How can you tell what on paper, if they are clones? By the stats
[21:07] (+Player5): yes
[21:07] (@^ST1): By the stats.
[21:07] (@^ST1): If there's way too many that are similar, you probably have a problem
[21:07] (+Player5): no I mean, I make 2 chars
[21:07] (+Player5): one is very physical, another is very social
[21:07] (@^ST1): ok... go on?
[21:07] (+Player5): stats are different as are merits
[21:07] (+Player5): but they handel situations the exact same way
[21:07] (+Player5): ...handle
[21:08] (@^ST1): Thatís not so much a big deal if the "Same way" fits the stats they have
[21:08] (@^ST1): that isnít going to happen a lot, if the stats are not identical
[21:08] (@^ST1): they can have SOME traits in common
[21:08] (+Player4): ...Right-- how do you tell if you've got those 2 characters that are different on paper and RP the same?
[21:08] (+Player4): Right, Neph?
[21:08] (@^ST1): its just when it gets to be excessive
[21:08] (+Player5): yes Player4
[21:08] * Player2 jots down a very simply note: "ST will bust me for it if it gets out of hand" and leaves it pretty much at that.
[21:08] (@^ST1): well there's two ways I can think of
[21:09] (@^ST1): one's easy, one is harder and requires you to be a very self aware person
[21:09] (@^ST1): the easy way is when the ST says "you're running the PC just like your other one but the stats donít say that"
[21:09] (@^ST1): The harder one is when you look at yourself RP'ing in various situations and you donít see or feel any diff in the RP from one PC to the other
[21:09] (@^ST1): Say a character gets in a confrontation.
[21:09] (@^ST1): Some chars will give it back
[21:10] (@^ST1): some will hide
[21:10] (@^ST1): some shut down mentally
[21:10] (@^ST1): if you see yourself reacting exactly the same to the same scenario with different stats, you're not playing your stats
[21:10] (+Player5): hmm, now I wonder about playing your stats
[21:10] (@^ST1): and that happens most often in a situation that is similar for the player OOC
[21:10] (@^ST1): for example
[21:10] (@^ST1): If you have a person, a player, who is extremely non confrontational
[21:11] (@^ST1): and *ALL* their PC's run from a fight, even though one of them is an asskicker... thatís wrong
[21:11] (@^ST1): They're not playing their stats, they're catering to their own OOC proclivities
[21:11] (@^ST1): what are you wondering, about playing your stats, Neph?
[21:12] (@^ST1): (This was addressed in a prior workshop BTW if you ever want to read up on it)
[21:12] (+Player5): say a character has low physical attributes, would it be wrong to play a character who is somewhat of a scrapper, just bad at it?
[21:12] (@^ST1): If their stats say they are an asskicker, why would they BE bad at it?
[21:12] (@^ST1): Ignoring any dice botches
[21:13] (+Player5): low physical attributes
[21:13] (@^ST1): then how are they a scrapper?
[21:13] (@^ST1): That is crappy PC design
[21:13] (+Player2): Attitude.
[21:13] (@^ST1): Make your stats fit your concept
[21:13] (+Player5): but that would be possible in real life
[21:13] (@^ST1): maybe you're describing it in a way IBM not catching.
[21:13] (+Player5): a drunk who likes to fight, but is bad at it
[21:13] (@^ST1): thatís more complicated
[21:13] (@^ST1): you're not describing a fighter
[21:14] (+Player5): no
[21:14] (@^ST1): You're describing someone who writes a lot of checks his ass cant cash for him
[21:14] (+Player5): yes
[21:14] (@^ST1): I mean you could have two PC's that arenít fighters
[21:14] (@^ST1): But I would insist that some of the other stats differ
[21:14] (@^ST1): SOMETHING
[21:14] (@^ST1): Make one a guy, one a girl
[21:14] (@^ST1): or one Asian one white
[21:14] (@^ST1): or one country, one city
[21:14] (@^ST1): old, young
[21:14] (@^ST1): Something to make it clear they arenít just clones
[21:15] (@^ST1): one's intellectual, one's dirt stupid
[21:15] (@^ST1): anything to break that Xerox effect
[21:15] (@^ST1): you have a lot of stats to play with here
[21:16] (@^ST1): so there's really no excuse for building the same exact PC twice. If it happens by accident it is rare that they are that much alike unless the player is really dense
[21:16] (@^ST1): Did that clear it up any or are you guys still lost?
[21:17] (+Player4): I'm clear. Basically, Nys' idea of playing a character by personality rather than stats is valid, as long as the stats apply and restrict or interfere or enhance the personality.
[21:17] (@^ST1): exactly
[21:17] (@^ST1): Neph, you good?
[21:17] (+Player5): yes
[21:17] (@^ST1): ok moving on
[21:17] (@^ST1): you guys will like this part

[21:17] (@^ST1): [2a] Romance, Sex & Relationships: Yes. Sure. There are, legitimately, love, sex and relationships in The World of Darkness. But remember, they should be the love, sex & relationships of your PC, not of the player, and often the two are not the same at all.
[21:17] (+Player4): I.e., even though you're bright in stats, you could play only bookish bright, common sense stupid.
[21:18] (+Player4): oops. Moving on!
[21:18] (@^ST1): This can get tricky because while most players don't get angry or violent when they are in a combat scene, there is something more intimate and vulnerable about a relationship scene that can affect you emotionally OOC.
[21:18] (@^ST1): Just as certain songs, or certain movies or TV shows might elicit an emotional response, some RP may get you OOC caught up in the drama of the moment. Probably a sign it was a good scene. This is fairly common, and even normal, but you just have to watch yourself and remember that when the scene is over with, so are all the warm fuzzies and "hawtt luvvins."
[21:18] * ^ST1 pauses for comments :)
[21:18] (+Player4): haaha.
[21:18] (+Player4): Chad & I bullshit OOC when we're IC sort of intense. It helps the awkwardness.
[21:19] * ^ST1 nods
[21:19] * Player2 chuckles and leaves this one a long.
[21:19] (+Player2): (alone too)
[21:19] (@Player1): a long?
[21:19] (@Player1): Freud and you would get along well :P
[21:19] (@^ST1): It's so interesting how players get wound up about RP'ing sex but have no problem RP'ing assault or murder.
[21:19] (+Player7): combat can be pretty intense, when there is a close fight
[21:19] * Player4 snorts
[21:19] (@Player1): Mike and I are a good example of this..
[21:20] (@^ST1): of what?
[21:20] (@Player1): in that "donít do it." sort of way lol
[21:20] (@^ST1): well you guys are an OOC thing
[21:20] (@^ST1): Iím getting to that next :)
[21:20] (+Player4): My first character had to do some pretty intense confrontational things, and it was hard to maintain a cool OOC head.
[21:20] (@^ST1): yeah Berke :)
[21:20] (@Player1): Well because it seems a lot of our pcs are "Together" and it appears perhaps to others that its OOC and not always IC because they've never seen the pcs we had that wanted to kill one another LOL
[21:20] * Player3 snorts
[21:20] (@Player1): and ooc feelings got hurt in the process. Sometimes.
[21:21] (@^ST1): well and not to be mean but a lot of the players just didnít put out any RP to ... how do I say this... preclude it
[21:21] (@Player1): I donít understand.
[21:21] (+Player2): I don't particularly have a problem when others do it. I try to avoid such things myself but *shrugs* Intimacy is hard. IC and OOC.
[21:22] (+Player4): But sometimes it's the natural course of things.
[21:22] (@^ST1): There's a lot of people who have given me shit because a lot of Jon's characters seem to be hooked up with mine (or for a long while there, likewise with slander's chars), but when they had their chance at a shot with one of them, their RP, frankly, sucked. The PC was not earning the attention
[21:22] (@^ST1): They just thought they were entitled and thought they failed because I wouldnít let them have what they earned. But they hadn't earned it
[21:22] * Player2 clams up. Looking out a nearby window.
[21:23] (@Player1): Well I meant, There were many nights when Mike and I have had characters that try to kill one another, and we've had to put aside ooc feelings to deal with the IC LOL but yea thatís another good point too Icey lol
[21:23] (+Player4): I think that's fair. I think your character should be linked with another character of the same caliber.
[21:23] (@^ST1): Whatís sad is one of the few people who RP'd earning a shot in hell, flaked and left in the middle of that storyline and dropped everything they'd built
[21:23] (@Player1): the joys of flakey players hehe
[21:23] (@^ST1): Yeah.
[21:24] (+Player4): Now let me ask this-- is it wrong to IC discriminate against a character based on OOC stuff? Like problems expressing themselves in text?
[21:24] * Player1 looks at Ice for that answer.
[21:24] (@^ST1): but the point is that I'm actually kind of uncomfy that there's so many pairings with the same people over and over. But... I look at the RP going on and I mean this over the years, not just right now, not trying to be accusatory.
[21:24] (@^ST1): Over the years people simply havenít earned it.
[21:24] (@^ST1): It absolutely is wrong Player4
[21:24] (@^ST1): But
[21:24] (@^ST1): You have to get OOC clear what is going on there.
[21:25] (@^ST1): Iíve had players who legitimately couldn't write well. One of our very old players had horrible dyslexia
[21:25] * Player1 takes off her socks.
[21:25] *** Quits: Player4 (private@dm-13514.brndml01.va.comcast.net) (Ping timeout)
[21:25] (@^ST1): But dyslexia is not misspelled words and shitty grammar. It's transposing things.
[21:26] (@^ST1): If you have a player who's just a lazy shit and won't write well enough so you can at least suss out what they are saying and the typos are not a distraction, then they are fair game. Get mad.
[21:26] (@^ST1): shit. Lemme see if she is coming back, hang on
[21:26] (@Player1): kk
[21:26] * Player1 is going to take a break logging though
[21:27] (@^ST1): I pasted her what I said, if she comes back I'll give her the rest.
[21:28] (@^ST1): But back to the other point... I am criticizing myself for the fact that I'm acknowledging I have a lot of pairings and partnerships with the same people a lot.
[21:28] (@^ST1): But I donít mean it to be cliquish. I give players a shot at the exact same things
[21:28] * Player2 raises an eyebrow.
[21:28] (@^ST1): but... sadly very few of them have earned it
[21:28] (@^ST1): and I canít just say Ok I'll ignore the fact your PC was a blithering idiot and jump his crank. No, that isn't gonna happen
[21:29] (@^ST1): I am really hoping in 2.0 with some new blood, new people in the mix, that maybe that will be a chance for more players to accomplish some things
[21:29] (@^ST1): That was Player4's question so I donít know if anyone else had a comment. If not, Iím moving on

[21:30] (@^ST1): [2b] Fixations on IC Love Interests: You have no romantic ties to another player OOC just because your characters do, and conversely you should not expect or insist on every character you have hooking up IC with those of your OOC love interest just because you are together OOC, as friends or as anything else.
[21:30] (@^ST1): Two of the biggest mistakes that players make in this situation are trying to force an OOC paramour to be one IC, and vice versa. Just because you have a thing for another player OOC, does not at all mean that your PC must, should, or even CAN, feel the same way.
[21:30] (@^ST1): On that note, if you are the Significant Other of another player, don't stalk or harass other PC's that interact with your SO's PC, IC or OOC. If you are a player with an overly possessive SO who is prone to this sort of stalking thing, please get your relationship crap sorted out on your own time, not ours. Keep it out of the game.
[21:31] (@^ST1): Just because your PC's hook up, screw or have a romance IC does not mean the other player wants you romantically, belongs to you, or even wants to get involved in your OOC real life in any way. A quality role-player will be able to run characters of vastly different ages, races, or genders than the player is OOC.
[21:31] (@^ST1): That lovely Fae maiden, or sexy androgynous goth boi vampire you are lusting after, could be run by some 50 year old, obese, balding married dude with a hairy back, for all you know.
[21:31] * ^ST1 pauses for comments
[21:31] (+Player6): COMMENT!
[21:31] (@^ST1): Go right ahead
[21:31] (+Player6): Ok, done.
[21:31] (@^ST1): smart ass
[21:31] (Player4): Sorry, folks
[21:31] *** ^ST1 sets mode: +v Player4
[21:31] (+Player6): Sorry
[21:31] (@^ST1): I pasted you some of the log Player4, did you want the rest?
[21:32] (@^ST1): in ICQ I mean
[21:32] (@^ST1): AIM
[21:32] (+Player4): Yes please
[21:32] (+Player2): I can admit a weakness at least: I have trouble running any kind of romantic IC entanglement with another guy.. Unless I know them fairly well/consistently OOC.
[21:33] (@^ST1): Just curious, if you are willing to speak to that Trey... Why is that?
[21:33] (+Player7): in that case don't actually rp out anything sexual, that's what I did... but that was also due to other reasons.
[21:33] (@^ST1): Cuz I think this is a highly valuable lesson here for quality role-players
[21:33] (+Player6): My weakness is that I can't run IC romance with anybody...: P
[21:33] (@^ST1): Yeah Doug I give you props. You did a romantic scene with another guy before, and he was playing a woman
[21:34] (+Player5): Do you have to?
[21:34] (@^ST1): but I don't think that makes you gay or anything
[21:34] (@^ST1): depends on the scene
[21:34] (+Player2): No.
[21:34] (@^ST1): incorrect Trey
[21:34] (@^ST1): it depends on the scene
[21:34] (+Player7): just go with the flow
[21:34] (+Player7): nah, i just killed his chick characters later... j/k :P
[21:34] (@^ST1): If the RP mechanics might lead to something that the ST needs to know, then yes you might have to at least OOC hash out what was to occur, play by play, in a clinical manner
[21:34] (@^ST1): yeah you did ;p but there was a reason
[21:35] (+Player2): well I mean if your character is asexual and not interested in anybody.. then *shrugs* odds are you won't have to RP any romance.
[21:35] (@^ST1): I'll give you an example of why it matters. This involves a plot spoiler from about 3 years ago
[21:35] (@^ST1): We had a storyline in here that involved a Kindred Only Virus.
[21:35] (@^ST1): However it was possible to transmit it through mortal/herd/human carriers. like a typhoid Mary thing
[21:35] (+Player7): asexual?
[21:36] (@^ST1): Not sexually interested in anyone, Doug
[21:36] (@^ST1): I know thatís a hard concept for you ;p
[21:36] (@^ST1): But back to the story.
[21:36] (@^ST1): We had a key mortal PC as the carrier.
[21:36] (+Player7): thought that meant you were sexless and reproduced through other means besides mating...
[21:36] (@^ST1): She had sex with and was fed from, by a Vampire NPC. Who thus became infected.
[21:36] (+Player6): Maybe he buds.
[21:37] (@^ST1): That vampire fed on two more mortals, infecting their blood but they donít get sick, and they never knew
[21:37] (@^ST1): So now in a week FOUR PC"s are carriers. And one is dying
[21:37] (@^ST1): That PC the original carrier, was shall we say a bit of an IC Slut.
[21:37] (@^ST1): We found out two weeks into the story about three other PC's who had fucked or fed from her.
[21:38] (@^ST1): People did not tell us and did not RP out stuff.... well some did, honestly a lot of it was people cybering her and not wanting to confess that that is what they wasted their RP time on
[21:38] (@^ST1): but the problem is the actions were legal IC moves
[21:38] (@^ST1): and we had to track that contagion
[21:38] (@^ST1): within a month.... 75% of the mortal and kindred game was infected.
[21:38] (@^ST1): because people didnít pay attention to this stuff and just fucked and sucked their way across Washington
[21:39] * Player4 snorts.
[21:39] (+Player7): hey, it made the storyline more interesting
[21:39] (@^ST1): 9 PC's died in that game. Another 5 or so were saved through extremely risky and painful medical and magical means
[21:39] (@^ST1): well sure it did
[21:39] (@^ST1): but Im showing you how "yes we need to know who you fuck" and not because we want to watch.
[21:39] (@^ST1): Frankly I find most people's cyber extremely boring.
[21:39] (@^ST1): But from a game mechanic standpoint in the world of darkness it matters
[21:40] (@^ST1): There have been PC's who use sexuality to spy on people
[21:40] (@^ST1): feed
[21:40] (@^ST1): implant devices on them
[21:40] (@^ST1): poison them
[21:40] (+Player5): how does that work?
[21:40] (@^ST1): how does what work, sex? (Smirks)
[21:40] (+Player4): ...notice she said 'most.'
[21:40] (+Player5): spying on people using sex
[21:40] * Player2 chuckles and winks at Player4
[21:41] (+Player4): Heh.
[21:41] (@^ST1): Implanting a device on them, using a discipline on them, scrying... cameras. Lots of ways
[21:41] (@^ST1): The Technocracy alone, never mind Demons and Kindred, have a dozen ways you could disguise an act of subterfuge with fucking
[21:41] (@^ST1): Iíve actually done a few of them.
[21:41] (@^ST1): Iíve also had a couple done to me as well
[21:42] (+Player5): is the action automatic?
[21:42] (@^ST1): Absolutely not
[21:42] (@^ST1): and that is WHY we need to know
[21:42] (@^ST1): why I'd prefer it was played out but I wonít demand it, but I will insist on an OOC hashing it out
[21:42] (@^ST1): I need to know. Do you penetrate here or there. Do you bite them. DO you use protection. Is there skin contact
[21:42] (@^ST1): etc etc
[21:42] (+Player5): it would seem if it failed, that the person who was the target would know immediately
[21:42] (@^ST1): That's a function of the power being used
[21:43] (@^ST1): too specific to be relevant here
[21:43] (+Player5): yes
[21:43] (@^ST1): but yes it does in fact become a bit like sex as combat
[21:43] * ^ST1 eyes Nys and Mike
[21:43] (@^ST1): not that we know anyone who rolls dice to fuck
[21:43] * Player2 uses his notebook to fan himself.
[21:44] (@^ST1): Does that clear it up any?
[21:44] (@Player1): huhwhathuh?
[21:44] (+Player5): sure
[21:44] (@^ST1): Nothing dear. Go back to sleep
[21:44] (@^ST1): OK moving on then
[21:44] (@Player1): heeey they werenít rolling dice to fuck, its just.. Anya and William fought. A LOT.. And it lead to sex.. A LOT: P
[21:44] (@^ST1): This might cut off, lemme know if it does
[21:44] (@^ST1): I'm teasing you dear.
[21:44] (@Player1): I know :)
[21:44] (@^ST1): I did roll dice to fuck once. Not that you asked ;p
[21:45] (@^ST1): But it mattered.
[21:45] (@^ST1): There were eeeeerie powers involved ;p
[21:45] (@Player1): youíve made me roll dice after fucking. :P
[21:45] (+Player7): I put on my robe and wizard's hat...
[21:45] (@^ST1): Yup and I'm gonna again later too thanks for reminding me
[21:45] (@Player1): Crap.
[21:45] (@Player1): LOL
[21:45] (+Player5): there are mechanics in D&D for that
[21:45] (@^ST1): ok moving on
[21:45] (@Player1): Book of Carnal knowledge. Love that book.
[21:45] (@^ST1): [2c] Exclusionary RP: Also, do not become the sort of player who will only role-play with the same person and ignores everyone else, even though your PC should be talking to them. The ST's will intervene if that becomes a problem, and it could result in being banned from here. The ST's put a lot of work into connecting story elements and plot devices,
[21:45] (@^ST1): and when you park your PC in a side channel with its pants down all night, the RP that actually MATTERS is not getting done.
[21:45] * ^ST1 pauses for more comments
[21:46] * Player1 coughs.
[21:46] (@Player1): seen the above done. Several times.
[21:46] (+Player7): obviously though, if your character has no reason to ever speak with another one, you arenít going to force those people to rp together are you?
[21:46] (@^ST1): Yeah not so much now, I think pretty much most or all of those guilty parties have finally ended up banned eventually from here
[21:47] (@^ST1): I'm not going to allow you to WRITE a character that doesnít have a reason to talk to people at all.
[21:47] * Player2 continues to jot notes at this is mostly academic to him. Lacking actual experience with these sort of problems.
[21:47] (@^ST1): Lone wolves fuck RP up.
[21:47] (+Player4): Can we talk about how to form relationships with other PC's? Especially established 'big name' PCs?
[21:47] (@^ST1): Thatís what NPCs are for
[21:47] (@Player1): not sure if its a good example but, once upon a time in a scene.. we had a garou half dead at our feet, and this one girl was always in the "only interact with so in so" mode.. and she was so busy trying to get in the other characters pants WHILE the guy was dying at our feet, she never noticed what was going on.
[21:47] (@^ST1): That would be a different workshop because it's not an issue of IC versus OOC mixing, but we can speak to it briefly if you want to Player4
[21:48] (+Player4): Nah, it's okay, we can do it another time.
[21:48] (+Player3): or other PC's who know the bigwig PC's who are more "approachable"
[21:48] (@^ST1): Yeah that player was busy hitting on someone else. That player played a healer character.
[21:48] (+Player7): I mean like Darren and Ice, they wouldn't talk unless it was damn necessary, we arenít going to be forced to rp with someone our character wouldn't naturally associate with or have to out of necessity (god I suck at spelling)
[21:48] (@^ST1): While she was doing that another PC lay dying 10 yards away
[21:48] (+Player5): hmm nympho flaw
[21:48] (@^ST1): well Iím not talking about specific PC's Doug
[21:48] (@^ST1): but what I do not want to see, is Mary ONLY RP'd with Joe.
[21:48] (+Player7): ah, ok
[21:48] (+Player5): or derangement
[21:48] (@^ST1): She never talks to anyone else, so if Joe is not here Mary never plays
[21:48] (@^ST1): thatís annoying as fuck
[21:49] (@^ST1): I donít expect every PC to be pals with every other PC
[21:49] (@^ST1): thatís just dumb
[21:49] (@Player1): big scary ST monsters will come eat you if that happens.
[21:49] (@^ST1): But I donít want PC's who cant be part of anything unless it is perfectly just so
[21:49] (@^ST1): remember how many nights we couldnít RP because of that. Tonight is a good example
[21:49] (@^ST1): we have like 4-5 Gehenna people, 3 key PC's missing, and a bunch of 2.0 people
[21:49] (@^ST1): so we couldnít do a scene with that.
[21:50] (@^ST1): Thatís an example of what I want to try and have LESS of in 2.0
[21:50] (+Player7): yeah
[21:50] (@Player1): more group time, less lonewolfing? right?
[21:50] (@^ST1): TOJ is unique because it's a pre canned story but in 2.0 I will go back to my normal Half Guided story, half go with the PC flow style
[21:50] (@^ST1): Yes Nys exactly.
[21:50] (@^ST1): At least group being 2-3 people
[21:51] (@^ST1): I was less bored and left out players. So trying to weave people's lives together more. As friends, or enemies, or contacts, or what have you
[21:51] (@^ST1): was = WANT
[21:51] (@^ST1): sorry
[21:51] (+Player4): I think that's a great idea.
[21:51] (+Player4): It's far fetched to have to meet EVERYONE you know at a bar.
[21:52] (@^ST1): I know what you are getting at Doug, but Iím not talking extreme here. No Darren MUST talk to Ice thing
[21:52] (@^ST1): but Darren should have like 2-3 pals he can talk to
[21:52] (@^ST1): so if pal #1 ainít on, he can talk to Pal #2 or 3
[21:52] (+Player7): But lone wolfing isn't going to be completely abolished is it? People are going to have their own motives and sometimes might need to act on their own to obtain them
[21:52] (@^ST1): Yes, it is Doug.
[21:52] (@^ST1): AS a DESIGN
[21:52] (@^ST1): not as an action
[21:52] (+Player7): motives...
[21:52] (@^ST1): A quest or a mission is one thing
[21:52] (@^ST1): no I wont let it be a motive
[21:53] (+Player7): sorry, was correcting myself
[21:53] (+Player2): Ok.. yes everyone should have a couple of "friends" IC.. but what if you're an asshole.. (completely hypothetical of course) who no one wants to talk to?
[21:53] (@^ST1): You need to be someone who is going to want to interact with others. I donít want any more of this kind of shit:
[21:53] (@^ST1): ST: Why aren't you playing? There's 10 people in channel
[21:53] (@^ST1): Player: Well I don't talk to this one, or this one, and my character wouldn't go here, and hates that, blah blah blah
[21:53] (@Player1): then you probably will have a: a very short life, and b: be very bored to the point of why are you bothering to play?
[21:53] (@^ST1): If you design an asshole IC and someone kills him, your problem.
[21:53] (@^ST1): I wonít stop it the way I did in 1.0
[21:54] (+Player3): Just to point out something here, kinda on topic and that is kinda a pet peeve of mine, is the "I only RP with people of the opposite sex"
[21:54] (+Player7): ok, I see now... So our characters can still lone wolf if they need/want to (to accomplish something) but you want us to also group up with others, socialize more often, not just play by ourselves
[21:54] (@^ST1): Bingo.
[21:54] (@^ST1): I want you not to have a room full of 7 players that canít talk to each other and RP SOMEHOW. Even in a combat
[21:54] (@Player1): and for the love of god, no more "I only RP with the ops.
[21:54] (@Player1): LOL
[21:54] (@^ST1): And yes Mike.
[21:55] * Player1 kicks a certain ex-player who was very bad about not interacting with other players and such because he was too busy chasing my tail. Grr..
[21:55] (@^ST1): I don't want any more of that shit either. People who will only play with certain narrow things of any kind. Be it only men, only women, only the ST's, only my boyfriend, any of that shit
[21:55] (@^ST1): Iím cracking down on that with an iron fist in 2.0
[21:55] * ^ST1 nods to Player1 and laughs
[21:56] (@^ST1): Trust me Iíve had plenty of those too, and sure the attention is nice and all but I donít like the example it sets
[21:56] (@^ST1): People sniffing up Ice or Heather's cootchie and ignoring other PCs
[21:56] (@Player1): its nice, sure, for like a day or 2.. then it gets annoying.
[21:56] (@^ST1): Exactly
[21:56] * Player2 coughs
[21:56] (@Player1): too busy trying to get in Lorelei's extremely tight pants to notice the giant ST post-it note.
[21:57] (@^ST1): You know Trey Iím not finger pointing at you, so if you wouldn't cough, the class wouldn't turn and stare ;p
[21:57] (+Player4): lol.
[21:57] * Player1 turns and stares.
[21:57] (+Player2): Wasn't what the cough was about.
[21:57] * Player3 looks at Trey "Kissass"
[21:57] (@^ST1): Phlegm?
[21:57] (@^ST1): care to share what it was about then?
[21:57] (+Player2): I just think it's funny.. Itís amusing for a day or 2 then they get bored..
[21:58] (@^ST1): well it's true
[21:58] (@^ST1): I am not going to deny it's nice to feel like someone wants your attention
[21:58] (@^ST1): But then it's like.... a horny puppy.
[21:58] (@^ST1): in all the euw kinda ways
[21:58] (@Player1): its amusing, till you cant get other shit done because you have a nose between your cheeks and your trying to get other shit done and the player is sitting there going "plaaaaaaaaaay wiith meeee. "
[21:59] (@^ST1): and the other ST's are giving the player story and they ignore it because following that lead likely won't lead to sex
[21:59] (@^ST1): And yes. That's happened in here. Often enough that this lesson had to be posted
[21:59] * Player2 nods and hands Player1 and Ice the "rolled up newspaper of NO"
[21:59] (@Player1): thankfully Iíve only had 1 person do that too me, and I now have greater understanding of the woes Ice has had to deal with, with it..
[21:59] (@Player1): never again. thanks.
[21:59] (@^ST1): Shall we move on then?
[22:00] * Player1 spits a spitball at Trey and goes back to paying attention to class :)

[22:00] (@^ST1): [2d] Playing Out Sexual Scenes - Yes or No?: There are legitimately times when sexuality comes into play in RP. It may be rare but they do exist. And sometimes, the mechanics of a scene need to be determined for RP purposes; you could be drugged or poisoned in the act, embraced by a Kindred, implanted with a device, or other things that are simply about game mechanics.
[22:00] * Player2 looks over his shoulder to Player3 "I haven't yet even begun to kiss ass" :)
[22:00] (@^ST1): However, some people are not comfy with playing this out, and some are. Some sexual scenes actually have plot value, and some use it just as an excuse to cyber. But, this is the World of Darkness. We are so comfy playing out all kinds of violence, and yet sex makes some people skittish. Something to think about.
[22:00] (@^ST1): Comments?
[22:00] (@^ST1): This hearkens back to earlier comments
[22:00] (+Player4): ... Question.
[22:00] (@^ST1): sure
[22:01] (+Player5): well violence is generally accepted in main stream media
[22:01] (@^ST1): I know. I guess I just wanted players to see that in themselves and realize it
[22:01] (+Player4): What if you have a relatively sexual PC, or a PC is in a relatively sexual situation-- appropriate or inappropriate to subject the rest of the players to a sexual or otherwise overt action?
[22:01] (+Player4): Sort of like a PDA, you know?
[22:01] (@^ST1): If the character is written to be sexual then play that.
[22:02] (+Player7): difference though, playing out violence is just gaming... some people view cyber sex like acts as something more, like if you were currently dating/involved with someone, it would feel sort of like betraying them.
[22:02] (@^ST1): The player who is being targeted is charged with reacting as their PC would react
[22:02] (@^ST1): Im getting to that next Doug
[22:02] (@^ST1): Good segue.
[22:03] * Player2 leans back hands behind his head secure on "Planet Trey" where sex is far more acceptable than violence.. or at least cruelty
[22:03] (@^ST1): to finish answering you Player4, if your character is ONLY Sexual and has no other purpose though, count on it not getting approved
[22:03] (@^ST1): Fucking is a one trick pony, even if itís a pony a lot of people like to rude
[22:04] (@^ST1): ride
[22:04] (@Player1): no longer approving cybering and sex as a purpose for life.
[22:04] (+Player4): Oh, no -- I guess I was asking about taking into consideration other OOC feelings about the issue.
[22:04] (@^ST1): but if they are well flushed out... and it just so happens they are very sexual, then they are very sexual
[22:04] (@^ST1): Donít.
[22:04] (+Player4): Like how some of us felt in Gehenna when we had the fuck fest.
[22:04] (@^ST1): OOC feelings are not game mechanics and Iím getting to that part next so why donít we just go on into it
[22:04] (+Player4): Okie dokie
[22:04] (@^ST1): Well that awkwardness was deliberate
[22:05] (@^ST1): and I was pleased to see it. It made the scene that much more in your face, as it should be, donít you think?
[22:05] * Player1 agrees.
[22:05] (@^ST1): I will tell you guys, I felt like I was fucking in a fishbowl in that scene. OOC it was really tough
[22:05] (+Player4): !! You took the easy way out anyway, Miss PBEM
[22:05] (@Player1): only at the end. lol
[22:06] (@^ST1): cuz OOC I am a very private person about these things, and to speak to trey's comment, i personally vote for myself that some sexuality in the RP I do find OOC emotionally threatening
[22:06] (@Player1): up to that point she had more eyes on her then a sharpei at the Westminster Kennel show.
[22:06] (+Player4): hahaa.
[22:06] (@^ST1): I'll RP stuff out but I have to process those feelings, just like I have had to do when I did theater and I had a romantic scene with someone I wasnít dating
[22:06] (+Player4): That makes sense.
[22:06] (@^ST1): yeah no shit
[22:06] (+Player2): Precisely
[22:06] (@^ST1): I guess Iím trying to have you guys see that its a lot like actors in movies
[22:06] (+Player2): precisely even. )
[22:07] (@^ST1): its not an accident that romantic co stars often end up dating later on and hi Shawn welcome to class
[22:07] *** ^ST1 sets mode: +v Player8
[22:07] * Player8 waves and stuff
[22:07] (@Player1): Iíve got a question, sortaa.
[22:07] * ^ST1 holds her next paste
[22:07] (@^ST1): Player8 the stuff we have discussed (at least the parts I brought up, not the responses) is on the web site in the topic if you want to read to catch up
[22:07] (@^ST1): go ahead nys
[22:08] (@Player1): Iíve always wanted to ask. and this is the best place if any.. But, why is it people who often play sexually active in public pcs, get pissed off when they (the character not player) get branded with nicknames like slut like they personally are being called it? (Does that make sense?)
[22:09] (@^ST1): Because the people who do that, often are using their PC to live out sexual shit they need to process on their own time
[22:09] (@^ST1): so since it's personal to them in the first place, they take it as an OOC comment
[22:09] (@Player1): Gotcha, Iíve just seen so many people get pissed off when they are playing this, well, slutty character, and people call them on it.. Never could understand it.
[22:09] * Player1 nods, question answered thank ya.
[22:10] (@^ST1): I see that most often in players who spend most of that PC's RP time just fucking. Not even doing anything plot wise with it. Not seducing and blackmailing, not conquering, not spying, just fucking to be doing it.
[22:10] (@^ST1): because I guess they're too proud to go to #FuckPalace and get it overwith OOC
[22:11] * Player1 snickers
[22:11] (@^ST1): But yeah I guess I would say for the record, if you run a PC that sluts around IC... and players say "Oh Bambi the PC is a real whore" whether they say it IC to react to her, or OOC just ... to comment on it... well that is what you get for creating that. Deal with it.
[22:11] (+Player2): Kinda casts a pale on the worth of their sexual attention too.
[22:12] (@^ST1): yeah it does Trey :)
[22:12] (@^ST1): just like if you create a PC that has no use but fighting people will say Sword Jock or Combat Whore
[22:12] (@^ST1): and that player would deserve that as well if it is excessive and devoid of any story value
[22:12] (@^ST1): just in the same way. Its not that there is no sex and no fighting in this genre
[22:13] (@^ST1): itís that it's supposed to have a POINT.
[22:13] (@^ST1): itís supposed to further the plot
[22:13] (@^ST1): or the action
[22:13] (+Player8): sex should be means to an end, not the end itself
[22:13] (+Player7): weeee, combat whore
[22:13] * ^ST1 bites Doug
[22:13] (@^ST1): ok moving on now

[22:14] (@^ST1): One of the most important decisions you need to make for yourself as a player, that will help you make good choices about RP'ing relationships, is to choose which side of the fence you are on with Role-playing vs. Reality. There are two schools of thought on this. There is no "Right" answer; what matters is that you need to address your choice with those you RP romance with IC.
[22:14] (@^ST1): The two choices are:
[22:14] (@^ST1): [a] Role-playing has no relevance to real life; my character does these things, not me, and they have no meaning to me as a player,
[22:14] (@^ST1): Or, [b] I understand that Role-playing is just a fantasy, but playing out romantic things with someone else is too emotionally intense for me and I would become as jealous, or enamored over the scene as I might if these things happened in real life. So, I would rather not do them with someone I'm not involved with OOC.
[22:14] (+Player2): Or at least move the two characters somewhat closer together.. IE if Bambi the slut gets captured by the Evil Magician then at least "Some" of her deluded paramours should come running.
[22:15] (@^ST1): exactly
[22:15] (+Player7): I kind of blend those personally, I can separate the two worlds, but If I'm involved with someone IRL, I can't do the sexual scenes as I don't feel it to be morally right. And I won't rp out sexual scenes like that with a guy, call me narrow minded, but I find that just a bit too weird.

[22:15] (@^ST1): The second one sounds like it is a mixing IC & OOC issue of another kind, but think about this: some relationships do not approve of partners having "Cybersex" and would consider such an action infidelity, so even if you pretend to be some supernatural creature, the things you type about are really no different in content to some people, than cybering a stranger online OOC.
[22:15] (@^ST1): It's a big deal to some relationships, and not to others. You just need to decide which camp you are in, and keep your IC RP partners advised of this, to avoid hard feelings. Don't judge which side they picked; just pick yours and make sure that's addressed with those you RP with in this way.
[22:16] (@^ST1): Why is that, Doug? (I donít think Trey ever answered this earlier either)
[22:16] (+Player7): I'm somewhat homophobic
[22:16] (@^ST1): Ok well fair enough if you know that about yourself.
[22:16] (@^ST1): What I would say is this:
[22:16] (@^ST1): Suppose you have a scene with a guy player and it comes down to that
[22:16] (@^ST1): Like Darren and Vero did
[22:16] (+Player7): I don't deny it, it creeps me out... And it is irrational
[22:17] (@^ST1): I would just ask you guys to go in OOC message and just clinically hash out what they do. Does this one bite that one. Do you use this power, or that power? Do they do anything that spreads a contagion or a poison or is blackmailable or whatever.
[22:17] (@^ST1): thatís all we NEED of the scene
[22:17] (+Player7): I can't remember exactly what happened with that but I am fairly certain we got up to a point and I stopped it and said "Okay, not rping out sex with a guy, too weird for me, plus I can't do the whole sex thing, ask Ice for details if need be"
[22:17] (@^ST1): the mechanics that may have consequences
[22:18] (@^ST1): yeah and thatís fine.
[22:18] (@^ST1): I just donít want any legal game moves to be ignored is all
[22:18] (+Player7): yeah, understandably... I believe she fed on Darren during that time as well, we worked all that out
[22:18] (@^ST1): without giving anything away yet until the debriefing I had to go through this with the whole Loki and Gabby rape trial
[22:18] (@Player1): basically we need to know if the scenes going to end up with someone dead, changed, pregnant, insane, blackmailed. We donít need the gory details?
[22:18] (@^ST1): I wonít say why yet. But... let's just say all this was an issue
[22:19] (+Player8): id be very weary of anyone that insisted on going thru the detailed motions
[22:19] (+Player2): For me it's a matter of "where I and the other person" stands. Much like the performance in a theater. Knowledge of what the other person finds attractive, sexually stimulating, important.. unimportant etc.. and just in general what do they want out of the scene.
[22:19] (@^ST1): Exactly Nys. I donít need to know about his 8 inch throbbing member and her dripping sex petals, I just wanna know did he put tab a in slot b or not.
[22:19] (+Player2): (To Answer the question from earlier)
[22:19] (@Player1): so you donít have to act out the gory details, just hash em out.. (cont from the first part.. getting sleepy)
[22:19] (@^ST1): You shouldnít do that Trey
[22:19] (@^ST1): You should cater to what the CHARACTER wants. Not the player
[22:20] (@^ST1): Iíve run sexual scenes with at least four characters I run. And each one has sex differently
[22:20] (@^ST1): and none of the four has it the way I have it OOC, not exactly.
[22:20] (@Player1): for Example. What Luxie wants sexually isnít what Nys wants sexually. and Nys' sexual preferences shouldnít factor into it.
[22:20] (@^ST1): bingo
[22:20] (+Player2): *nods* True enough, It's not "THAT" personal but there is a little bit of .. "um.. ok.. so how is he going to react as a "she".. "
[22:20] (@Player1): Nys is not a necropheliac for one.
[22:21] (+Player4): I think sometimes it's important to have a little of the details-- like, not "DETAILS", but a progression. Especially if you're working on relationship/emotional IC stuff.
[22:21] (@^ST1): and much as there have been men Casey would like to disintegrate the penis off of, I havenít actually ever done that ;p
[22:21] (@^ST1): Bingo Player4
[22:21] (@^ST1): like Player4 and Corvin are actually processing their sexuality as part of their story
[22:21] (@^ST1): and you turned that into good RP so I donít bitch about it
[22:21] (+Player4): I'm a fan of the view above the blanket stuff.
[22:21] (@^ST1): you guys are a good example of what to CORRECTLY do with it
[22:22] (+Player4): Otherwise, Chad gets romance novel on me and I start laughing too hard to type.
[22:22] (@^ST1): and also Nys and Mike, what Luxie and William are alternately fighting about lately in Gehenna is interesting as well
[22:22] (@^ST1): all those dynamics. Sexuality makes people weird out. Especially old vampires.
[22:22] (@Player1): what part the "Iím your second choice because Iím the only one who doesnít look like your dead ex" or the "We were both virgins when we died what the hell are we doing now" part? LOL
[22:23] (@^ST1): but let's get off sexuality now (hah) and finish the rest since some people are getting crashy here
[22:23] (@^ST1): Both of them actually
[22:23] (@^ST1): and I like how Ice kinda gets William more now
[22:23] (@^ST1): that all fell into place accidentally very nicely
[22:23] (@Player1): strange how thatís all working out now LOL
[22:23] (@^ST1): Yeah. heh
[22:24] (@^ST1): ok so next sexing er SECTION
[22:24] (@Player1): lol Freud.
[22:24] (+Player2): And lets not forget the three odd men out dealing with their envy in different ways.

[22:24] (@^ST1): 3] Skills & Knowledge Mixing: Another common trap players fall into (and this is frequently accidental), is acting or reacting to something out of what you as a player know OOC, instead of how your PC should react IC. Players sometimes lose track of the minutiae of what they do not know or cannot do very well, especially if it's not something you'd put on your background sheet or occurred after the fact.
[22:24] (@^ST1): There's not much of a fancy trick to fixing this except to make a deliberate point to clear your mind and center yourself before going IC. Remember who you are portraying, and react out of your stats, not your OOC knowledge. If your PC does not know a thing, you must act that way even if OOC you are an expert.
[22:24] (+Player3): hey, not a single one of them shook hands with the bishop
[22:24] (@^ST1): I guess the only real advice here is to be diligent, or maybe to write some more of this stuff down on your background sheet for reference (who and what you do, and do not, know). Or, this may be a time to concede to playing a PC a bit more like yourself until such time that you feel you are ready to branch out into playing someone very unlike yourself.
[22:24] (@^ST1): Iím not so sure Trent didnít ;p
[22:24] (@^ST1): Or Ryder either
[22:24] (@^ST1): but back to the topic at HAND.
[22:25] (+Player4): Hah.
[22:25] (@^ST1): Questions or comments NOT about the sex parts?
[22:25] (@Player1): I will comment that I had a hard time with Chiana at first... because I knew shit she Should have known, and I had to remind myself not to mix it.
[22:26] (+Player2): Play a PC more like yourself but don't put yourself too much into your PC... Hmm.. seems there is a significant amount of balancing to be done there.
[22:26] (@Player1): about kindred and such, she had to learn it IC even though I knew it OOC.
[22:26] (@^ST1): Exactly. Thatís exactly right, it's all about balance
[22:26] (@^ST1): And Iím only saying play a PC like yourself to a more inexperienced player
[22:26] (+Player2): Great. Nys has got you going Buddhist too.
[22:26] (+Player7): that is my problem with many of my characters... I know a lot about Werewolf and vampire, but i have to determine what they know and how to apply it, can be annoying
[22:26] * Player1 laughs
[22:26] (@^ST1): someone who hasnít mastered some of the skills we talked about in playing something you arenít good at OOC
[22:27] (+Player8): I think little slips, especially in situations with rapid fire whit slinging, are forgivable
[22:27] (@^ST1): Of course
[22:27] (@^ST1): Iím not trying to be a Nazi here. These are guidelines. and goals.
[22:27] (@^ST1): not law.
[22:28] (@^ST1): This is supposed to be fun, and creative. Itís art and expression and passion and emotion and theater and prose.
[22:28] (@^ST1): There is room in the world for the e e cummings and the Tennyson and the Plath and the James Joyce.
[22:28] (+Player8): I think maybe that research helps here, especially when you are playing a character fairly alien to your personal experience
[22:28] (+Player4): ... okay, what about the opposite-- playing a character with IC knowledge that you don't have OOC. I run into this problem all the time.
[22:28] (@Player1): in re: to the playing something your arenít good at OOC.. Google is your friend and Ice is a master at finding shit online.
[22:28] (@^ST1): Oh yes.
[22:28] (@^ST1): That we discussed in the 2nd workshop, Player4.
[22:29] (@^ST1): How to play something you are bad at OOC, IC
[22:29] (+Player4): Yeah, I remember.
[22:29] (@Player1): research research research.
[22:29] (@Player1): :)
[22:29] (+Player4): I need to learn to master the Internet like y'all.
[22:29] (@^ST1): For those of you who want to spend some more time on "How do I do stuff IC I am OOC bad at" keep this link handy: http://www.digitalgothic.net/Rules/nwodicskills.htm
[22:30] (@^ST1): ok next part:

[22:30] (@^ST1): 4a] Mood, Attitude & Demeanor Mixing: This is not as much of a common problem, but take care that it stays that way. Occasionally, players who are having a bad, or even a very good day, IRL, sometimes lose track of the emotional state and mood of their PC.
[22:30] (@^ST1): They can be snotty or surly IC when it's not called for in the RP, due to being depressed or angry OOC. Or conversely, they might be too light-handed with a PC who was written as more dour and anti-social, because they are all bouncy IRL from a good day and their RP is too gregarious, reflecting that OOC mood.
[22:30] * ^ST1 pauses for comments
[22:30] * Player2 passes Player4 a Note that reads. "When in doubt Ask the ST"
[22:31] (@Player1): Most of the time, I am free to help players find stuff online about professions or whatnot your pc has that your not familiar with. Particularly anything with the medical stuff... Google is really a great tool though.
[22:31] * Player1 reads the next chunk
[22:31] (@Player1): ooh I have a good example of that LOL
[22:31] (@^ST1): Also ask the Yahoo list, guys
[22:31] (@^ST1): Thatís one reason we have it.
[22:31] (@^ST1): Whatís the example Nys
[22:31] (+Player7): solution, make a PC for each of yours emotions and play accordingly... j/k
[22:32] (@^ST1): Smarty pants
[22:32] (+Player5): I have a question on the link you posted, does it work for anyone else?
[22:32] (@^ST1): Uh, yeah.
[22:32] (@Player1): Well, as some of you might or might not know (Ice and Jon do of course) Iím on a shit load of medication for my heart, one night not too long ago I wasnít on it and I was a little.. Cookoo... so my pc did something she normally wouldnít have. she went and screwed with a bunch of snakes, when IC she's smart enough to have known better. but OOC I was off my rocker.
[22:32] (@^ST1): Ahh yeah.
[22:32] (+Player8): sometimes it just isnít a good idea to go IC.. though I think its easier to play down a good OOC mood that the inverse
[22:32] (@^ST1): well and see... you follow the example and you said something
[22:33] * Player4 grins.
[22:33] (@^ST1): and I OOC said something in OPs. like... WTF are you doing ;p
[22:33] (+Player4): I thought it was a fun night.
[22:33] (@^ST1): Oh it was
[22:33] (@^ST1): She's just saying she kind of was ignoring the big pink ST post it NOT to keep fucking with the snakes
[22:33] (@^ST1): but because she was loopy
[22:33] (@Player1): yeah it was but Luxie isnít that stupid and she's dealt with snakes, she would have known not to toy with em.. Nys however was ignoring the ST going "Stop that" because Nys blood pressure was too high and her brain wasnít connecting.
[22:34] (@^ST1): And I'll tell you sometimes Iíve had a really, really shitty night OOC and I know very damned well I would just like some attention. And I have occasionally said you know what, I need to NOT go IC right now, because I will just start feeding that in the RP
[22:34] (@^ST1): and begged off
[22:34] *** ^ST1 sets mode: +v Player9
[22:34] (@Player1): so pretty much thereís this.. unsaid rule of, when Iím not on my meds or something, I let Ice and Jon know, so if I start acting fucked up they call me out on it so I can correct it, because I donít really notice it.
[22:35] * ^ST1 nods
[22:35] (@^ST1): and back when my narcolepsy was a lot worse I had nights where I was wound too tight and had to just log off. That was it.
[22:35] (@Player1): I remember a couple of those nights.
[22:35] (+Player9): i think i saw one or two
[22:35] (@^ST1): If you donít realize it right away, at least you know, deal with it later on
[22:36] (@^ST1): But Iíve had players come in and bitch bitch bitch about their day
[22:36] (@^ST1): then we go IC and their mild mannered reporter PC is suddenly this confrontational cunt I need to slap
[22:36] (@^ST1): and we all know its cuz OOC such and such sucky thing happened
[22:36] (@^ST1): so just.... don't do that, and if you do do it, say sorry and fix any bad RP from it
[22:36] (@Player1): something in the medical field you learn is to leave your work at work or youíll go mad, I guess the same could sort of be said about Gaming. if you cant, then maybe, you know, tonightís not the night to play?
[22:37] (@^ST1): exactly
[22:37] (+Player2): heh.
[22:37] (+Player8): I donít know about everyone else, but even in the insanely stupid game i was in previously, sometimes just slipping into character helps to even me out after a shitty day
[22:37] (+Player2): That is sometimes far easier said then done.
[22:37] (@^ST1): Sure I know
[22:37] (@^ST1): but... at least try
[22:37] (@^ST1): Sometimes that is also true, Player8
[22:37] (+Player4): Is that a viable excuse for begging off RP, though?
[22:38] (@^ST1): Putting your problems away and dealing with different ones sometimes diffuses things
[22:38] (+Player4): ... I know how stressy we get about everyone being on to play.
[22:38] (@^ST1): well it depends Player4
[22:38] (@^ST1): I donít mean like just a bad day
[22:38] (@^ST1): I mean a day that was so shitty that you know you're not CAPABLE of being rational and mature
[22:38] (@^ST1): Do you really want me to ST for your character and kill it in a psychotic rage?
[22:38] (@Player1): Iím pretty sure If I came on and said. "Ice, my favorite patient at work died today..." she's not gonna force me to RP
[22:38] (@^ST1): I know I wouldnít
[22:38] (+Player9): .....mature? so Iím never allowed to play
[22:38] (@^ST1): Cute Chad
[22:39] (+Player8): lost your job, SO of 5 years just left you, Just won the lottery.. big stuff ;)
[22:39] (@^ST1): Now if someone claims that like several times a month, they're pulling your chain
[22:39] (@Player1): and we've had people who've done that.
[22:39] (@^ST1): I just had a heart attack and had to go to the ER.... *eyes Nys*
[22:39] (@Player1): we are wise to that ploy LOL
[22:39] * Player1 laughs
[22:39] (+Player3): Umm....I can vouch for 4 of those 5 times...
[22:39] (@Player1): yeah.. "hey Ice, um.. donít think Ill be playing tonight I just got back from the ER"
[22:40] (@^ST1): yeah.
[22:40] (@Player1): we understand shit happens.
[22:40] (@^ST1): Well and conversely...
[22:40] (@^ST1): Remember a couple months ago I came home and we had this HUGE scene planned
[22:40] (@^ST1): and I had to go put my dog down unexpectedly. I came home and she was in full renal failure on the floor of the garage
[22:40] (@^ST1): and I actually WANTED to play. I wanted to be distracted
[22:40] (@Player1): I remember that..
[22:41] (@^ST1): You gotta know your honest limits and be truthful about them
[22:41] (+Player7): I remember being annoyed until you told me, then I felt like an asshat :P
[22:41] (@^ST1): heh. Yeah well I understood.
[22:41] (@^ST1): But yeah Player4 that can get abused, as well. So its kind of a boy who cried wolf thing.
[22:41] * Player4 nods.
[22:41] * Player1 looks at the clock, grumbles.. Itís about that Craptastic time again
[22:41] (@^ST1): If everyone senses its just a constant excuse then no it isnít cool
[22:41] (+Player4): Be an adult.
[22:42] (@^ST1): but conversely if you are really pissy and wound up, you will ruin the scene for people anyway
[22:42] (@^ST1): now if you NEED to finish the scene I hope most of the time people can collect themselves enough to finish it
[22:42] (+Player3): and ruin it for yourself in the long run
[22:42] (@^ST1): 'like say if this happened the night of the Conclave
[22:42] (@^ST1): which wasnít really renegotiable save for severe bodily harm
[22:42] (@^ST1): go get a drink or a hot shower or some shit, come on, do your business, and there you go.
[22:43] (@Player1): like I said then, IF Me, Mike, Ice and Jon could be online during that time with all we had going on......... well..
[22:43] * Player1 smirks.
[22:43] (@^ST1): exactly
[22:43] (+Player7): one of the bonuses of playing a Get of Fenris Ahroun, you can come home annoyed and angry and still play without many noticing a difference
[22:43] (@^ST1): hahahahaha
[22:43] (@^ST1): That explains a lot Doug ;p
[22:43] (@^ST1): ok Moving on now

[22:43] (@^ST1): [5] Things You Hear About or Overhear OOC, Being Used IC: The things you end up hearing about OOC, cannot be used in game. For example, if someone is in the channel and they run off at the mouth, "So, I'm building a vampire who ghouled the chief of police...", you must wipe that out of your mind and not react to either character about it until you earn that information in role-play. You might overhear the race, faction, powers or plans and plotting of other characters.
[22:43] (@Player1): alright kids, Iím going to bed, but Iím logging .. see you all tomorrow..
[22:43] (@^ST1): that cut off somewhere
[22:43] (@Player1): the race, faction, powers or
[22:44] *** Player1 is now known as Player1Logging
[22:44] (@^ST1): You might overhear the race, faction, powers or plans and plotting of other characters.
[22:44] (+Player7): c'ya nys
[22:44] (@^ST1): This is the reason that the ST's are so anal about players discussing these things in the public channel; it becomes difficult to just pretend you didn't hear something, and we have found in our experience that even accidentally, it does color people's role-play. You may find yourself accidentally reacting to what you know in some subtle way. So we feel the best policy is to keep things OOC strictly on a need-to-know basis.
[22:44] (+Player3): Night guys, staying on to log
[22:44] (@^ST1): ok nite you two
[22:44] * Player3 is away -( Sleep...work...rinse...repeat )- at 10:47p -( P:On / L:On )-
[22:44] (@^ST1): comments?
[22:45] (+Player8): well..... It sure helps if you have things to talk about besides the game in OOC... in more ways than one
[22:45] * ^ST1 nods
[22:45] (@^ST1): Yeah as long as it doesnít go to politics, religion, excessive potty Player9, hate stuff, whatever. Trolling, basically.
[22:46] * Player2 laughs
[22:46] (+Player7): I do that just out of boredom if there is a pause, I can look at rolls and vaguely figure out stats... my memory is too shitty for it to do me any good, but it really isn't hard to figure things out
[22:46] (+Player8): helps to keep IC and OOC separate. Helps to keep chatter about IC stuff down, helps to develop friendships so people actually give a crap about letting others down by bailing on scheduled RP
[22:47] (@^ST1): Iíve noticed that people who heard shit about some of my PC's in OOC acted afraid of them IC when they had no IC right to be, no reason to fear them
[22:47] (@^ST1): even well meaning people react to things they overhear
[22:47] (+Player7): it's hard not to if you know that person might be screwing them over
[22:47] (@^ST1): well sometimes Iíve gotten burned with IRC friendships, Player8, but I can see the point that if some players treated other players as they would friends, in other words the dudes you would tabletop with in someone's basement, they might be less rude to them
[22:48] (@^ST1): that may be a valid point
[22:48] (+Player8): ya get burned in life.. canít have a good game with out trust..
[22:48] (+Player8): your point is well taken though
[22:48] (+Player2): *nods*
[22:48] (@^ST1): exactly
[22:48] (@^ST1): ok.
[22:48] (@^ST1): And now the part many of you have been waiting for - How do you stop doing these things wrong and fix it?
[22:48] (+Player2): hey.. my friends fuck up all the time..
[22:48] (+Player2): I have no obligation to cut them excessive amounts of slack
[22:49] (@^ST1): yeab but you talk to each other about it
[22:49] (@^ST1): you donít just kiss it off cuz you donít know them IRL
[22:49] (+Player2): aye.. that's the key difference.. The bridges don't burn quite so easily
[22:49] (@^ST1): People do all kinds of crap in an IRC game that would get them hit in the mouth IRL
[22:49] (@^ST1): They kid themselves we don't matter because it's just a computer game, with no more ethic to it than switching off the X Box, and thatís how some of them behave
[22:50] (@^ST1): that becomes their player ethic
[22:50] (@^ST1): or lack
[22:50] (+Player2): bad philosophy.
[22:50] (@^ST1): I'll bring out and flog my favorite two examples real quick on that
[22:50] (@^ST1): Theater play and football team
[22:50] (@^ST1): You donít have to be best friends with everyone in the play, or every team mate.
[22:50] (+Player2): Ooo a flogging a flogging.. *claps his hands together*
[22:51] (+Player8): I once let a character get crucified and left to ash In the sun when I could have avoided it with rumors i heard OOC....
[22:51] (@^ST1): but if you donít show up a lot, and you're a dick and do your own thing and sass the coach or the director a lot....
[22:51] (@^ST1): you're accountable to that team and that cast and your choices fuck up the lives of other people, even if its just a hobby
[22:51] (@^ST1): I think it's good you didnít use that when you could have easily, Player8
[22:51] (+Player8): I know my only problem is when i suspect Iím going to get into an IC confrontation with someone that isnít so adverse to using info they really shouldnít have
[22:52] (@^ST1): well if you have reason to think someone's pulling that in here, SAY SOMETHING
[22:52] (+Player8): shouldn't have even
[22:52] (@^ST1): I have no compunction about calling a player out
[22:52] (+Player8): Well, you know me.. Mr shellshocked ;)
[22:52] (@^ST1): yeah yeah
[22:52] (+Player7): I have problems with that, it is natural though and I try to avoid it
[22:52] (@^ST1): S'what happens from being an VOE ST ;p
[22:52] (@^ST1): Oh sure it's natural, Doug, but at least be aware you do it, and try not to.
[22:52] (@^ST1): Or you know, go back and fix it
[22:53] (@^ST1): You learn what to watch for and then you do it less
[22:53] (@^ST1): ok so how to avoid these mistakes:
[22:53] (@^ST1): 1. AVOID SELF-INSERTING: Stay away from "Self-Insertion" PC's. Not so much characters who might share a few skills or knowledges with you, but more so PC's who are quite clearly, to everyone else, either a clone of yourself or a fantasy fixation mechanism.
[22:53] (@^ST1): comments?
[22:54] (+Player8): I know I always start characters with a seed of myself..
[22:54] (@^ST1): of course
[22:54] (+Player7): arenít all characters essentially a fantasy fixation? You are playing out something you want to be, or are at least interested in
[22:54] (+Player2): Same here.. it's a balancing act..
[22:54] (@^ST1): There's a tiny piece of you in every character
[22:55] (@^ST1): but it's when you might as well name the PC Shawn or Trey or Doug or Casey, that it's probably a bad idea
[22:55] (+Player2): Truth be told though, it's simple for me to make a character almost exactly like me in attitude but with a significant difference.
[22:55] (@^ST1): Yeah Doug but here's the diff
[22:55] (+Player8): I really use WoD games to explore my different ethnic heritages....
[22:55] (+Player2): They arenít lazy.
[22:55] (+Player8): but that is cool, cause Iím not a Russian Cossack or Highland Clansmen or whatever.. Iím Shawn, the west coast canuck...
[22:55] (@^ST1): You are pretending to be someone else, but when you clearly are FIXATED on it; especially always playing characters who are just like you but more perfect and good at everything... then it's no longer RP, it's just masturbation with the other players watching
[22:56] (+Player8): now.. if I made a Audio Engineer from Calgary or something, then id worry about me
[22:56] (@^ST1): well You could make the PC a girl, Shawn
[22:56] (+Player7): hmm, another Albertan?
[22:56] (@^ST1): Or make them smarter or dumber or black or blind or something
[22:56] * ^ST1 coughs
[22:56] (+Player8): Iím actually from BC ;)
[22:56] (+Player7): ah
[22:57] (@^ST1): You know me and those Vancouver boys
[22:57] (@^ST1): ;pppp
[22:57] (@^ST1): anyway
[22:57] (@^ST1): next

[22:57] (@^ST1): 2. AVOID ROMANCE DRAMA: If you are OOC self-aware and honest enough to know that you have OOC romance issues, don't write a PC that lends itself easily to getting involved in them. Make a PC that is not very sexy, or that is asexual. Remind yourself that PC's who might seem very sexy, may not be run by someone you would drool over OOC.
[22:57] (+Player8): feh..
[22:57] (+Player8): i could write reams about that..
[22:57] (+Player2): uh..
[22:57] (@^ST1): Don't say reams
[22:57] * ^ST1 inches away from Shawn
[22:57] (@^ST1): comments on the posting?
[22:58] (+Player2): Kinda goes against the whole "react to the Character not the player* rule of romance.
[22:58] (@^ST1): No it doesnít.
[22:58] (@^ST1): How?
[22:58] (+Player8): Iím not sure if i have any constructive comments.. just piss and venom
[22:58] (@^ST1): So piss and venom for a minute; p
[22:58] (+Player9): fuck em and chuck em, safest that way
[22:58] * ^ST1 waits for Player4 to smack Chad for that one
[22:59] (+Player2): Remind yourself that PC's who might seem very sexy, may not be run by someone you would drool over OOC.
[22:59] (@^ST1): That's not contradictory because Iím in that section speaking about your OOC reaction
[22:59] (@^ST1): I have had players get completely horndog over sexy looking PC's, and then get hot for the player
[23:00] (@^ST1): because they imagine them to be their PC
[23:00] (+Player8): my personal opinion is that until someone comes out with a Harlequin Romance RPG, it doesnít have much of a place
[23:00] (@^ST1): or vice versa
[23:00] (@^ST1): we had a player in here who plays some creepy assed PC's and once some of the other players found out what they looked like IRL, they would all try to bed his characters suddenly
[23:01] (+Player7): She means me....
[23:01] * Player7 shuts up now
[23:01] (@^ST1): hah
[23:01] (+Player4): lol.
[23:02] (+Player9): damn right, Iím still trying to corn-hole ya

[23:02] (@^ST1): 3. KEEP IT SIMPLE: If you know that you are not very good at keeping straight what you personally know OOC versus what your PC knows IC, build a PC with skills that you know OOC, for now, and lay off anything really exotic.
[23:02] (@^ST1): #3 is more geared, again, to newer players.
[23:02] (@^ST1): Experienced players are less confined
[23:02] (+Player8): no virgin James Bonds
[23:02] (+Player7): not true, I'm more experienced, I just prefer doing characters that are more close to my knowledge, makes them more believable
[23:04] (+Player7): Like Marcus, I kind of gave up with him because it dawned on me, I knew fuck all of what I was doing
[23:04] (+Player8): well, dice can help you out to some degree
[23:05] (+Player8): but can't totally cover your ass
[23:05] (+Player7): but not really, if you don't really know what is going on, you look dumb
[23:05] (+Player2): fer serious
[23:05] (+Player8): ST can choose to throw you a bone if you roll decently
[23:06] (+Player9): yea, or you get called out by someone else ooc that does know what they are talking about telling you what you said was totally wrong...
[23:06] (+Player2): Yeah.. but they can choose not to..
[23:06] (+Player8): then yer fucked
[23:07] (+Player2): hence.. do a good job of your self. don't rely on others or even the ST tossing you bones.. sure it's nice when they do.. but it's more likely they help you out once in a while if you're not wanking the rest of the time.
[23:08] (+Player8): point conceded
[23:08] (+Player2): *chuckles* Trust me mate.. it was a hard won lesson.
[23:09] (@^ST1): I'm just saying, Doug you have been playing a long time but you haven't stretched yourself too far out of your "box" yet
[23:09] (@^ST1): Though slowly that is changing but it takes time
[23:12] * Player2 doodles on his notebook paper.
[23:13] (+Player8): the worst thing about players that play characters above them is trying to explain that to them
[23:13] (+Player2): heh..
[23:14] (+Player4): lol
[23:14] (@^ST1): moving on
[23:14] (+Player2): Well .. I've found that this game varies significantly from ST to ST.. just the little things that the books purposefully leave's vague adds up.

[23:14] (@^ST1): 4. AVOID RP WHEN IN AN OOC CRISIS: If your moods, health or other IRL issues are seriously screwing up your RP, log off for 10 minutes and go get your head screwed on straight. Get some water. Go outside. Take a pill. Get a snack. Take a quick shower. Whatever it is you do to collect yourself.
[23:14] (@^ST1): Then, when you are calmed down, come back and finish your scene, so that you are not acting out your IRL emotions in places that IC they do not belong. Or if you can't function, log back on and at least show the courtesy of letting people know you need more time. Set and agree to a time to reconvene.
[23:15] (+Player8): sorta covered that ground already, no?
[23:15] * Player2 jots down.. "don't a dick"
[23:15] (+Player2): (don't be a dick)
[23:16] (@^ST1): Yeah but I pre wrote this before we had a discussion Shawn ;p
[23:16] (+Player8): i know, just saying ;)
[23:16] (@^ST1): smarty pants
[23:16] (+Player9): so, we move on?
[23:16] (@^ST1): this next one is more just one way, its optional, and not meant to imply the other way is bad

[23:17] (@^ST1): 5. KEEP YOUR PRIVACY, IF THAT HELPS: An optional choice that some players prefer, is to remain on an impersonal basis OOC with other players, keeping private and identifying information to themselves. This is a situation that is unique to Online RP, with the possible loose exception of Walk-in TableTop or LARP games in public places such as a convention.
[23:17] (@^ST1): Some people like to be friendly with other players as one does in a regular tabletop game, and there is nothing wrong with that, but players who keep a distant privacy online tend largely not to have so many issues with things like OOC obsessions about them from other players, or OOC drama being dragged into the channel because nobody knows your business.
[23:17] (@^ST1): This approach of staying detached works out for some people, and makes others uncomfortable. It's not a rule, just a suggestion or option
[23:17] (@^ST1): comments?
[23:18] (+Player8): Basically agree, though i prefer to play with people that are not detached
[23:18] (@^ST1): and thatís fine
[23:18] (@^ST1): I just wanted it to be clear Iím not dissing your way
[23:18] (+Player9): Iíd rather be a little chummy.
[23:18] (+Player8): thus i prefer,l not insist ;)
[23:18] (+Player9): prevents slander-ism.
[23:18] (@^ST1): I like chummy but I can also say I used to be more chummy and some players have fucked me over for it
[23:19] (+Player2): As long as their detachment doesn't start affecting the game negatively I'm fine leaving some one their space.
[23:19] (@^ST1): yeah but then you get people who you consider to be friends, fucking you over suddenly and you cant understand why because you thought you were chums
[23:19] (@^ST1): and unlike IRL a lot of times these things never get dealt with
[23:19] (+Player2): That's the big issue
[23:20] (+Player2): It's a hell of a lot easier to Ostrich online.
[23:20] (+Player2): I.e.. Either bury your head in the sand or run away.
[23:20] (+Player8): and the larger the game, the more likely that is to happen
[23:21] (@^ST1): There's no perfect answer
[23:21] (@^ST1): Iím just bringing up the merits of each approach
[23:21] (+Player2): And that's something no amount of online workshops is going to fix. If a person is a coward they're a coward.. Thereís no "shaming" them into acting honorably..
[23:21] (@^ST1): sadly, that is true, Trey, donít you wish it were otherwise
[23:21] (@^ST1): Anyway moving on

[23:21] (@^ST1): 6. BE RESPONSIBLE ABOUT YOUR HEALTH: This becomes our business when players have health problems that change their moods online and makes them react inappropriately or be out of control and mess up the RP.
[23:21] (@^ST1): If you are on any kind of medications for depression, bi-polar disorder, ADD, or other conditions which drastically impact your mood, DO NOT RP when unmedicated or in any kind of a medical crisis related to this condition. We can't sit here and monitor your health to know if you are in any shape to RP, and if you're not we have no choice but to remove you from play.
[23:22] (@^ST1): comments?
[23:22] * Player2 puts away his paddle ball and razor blades.
[23:22] (+Player2): What if you can generally keep a handle on it?
[23:22] (@^ST1): If you're keeping a handle on it, then it's not being a problem. And vice versa. If it's being a problem, you're not keeping a handle on it
[23:23] (+Player2): gotcha
[23:23] (@^ST1): If you're fucking up a lot and your constant excuse is "well Iím bipolar or Iím this or that" it gets old. Nys is on like half a pharmacy of drugs and with one big exception that she's taken responsibility for, she keeps track of her "times she shouldnít RP"
[23:24] (@^ST1): That had a lot to do with the big blowup of her leaving years ago
[23:24] (@^ST1): But Iíve had players in here who donít take responsibility
[23:25] (@^ST1): I had one who CLAIMED to be unmedicated bipolar (I think she just wanted carte blanche to be a bitch to people) and she would tear apart the entire channel on a weekly basis
[23:25] (@^ST1): I banned her three times; the last time I kept it there.
[23:25] (+Player7): sati?
[23:25] (+Player9): speaking of times when to leave, Iím up at 6 tomorrow for more work fun-ness. So Iím gonna jam. Good night everybody!
[23:25] (+Player4): Night Chad.
[23:25] (+Player8): i sometimes think people should have psych evals before they can play WoD games. Not practical or moral, but there are days ;)
[23:25] (@^ST1): This shit did not end until 9 months later of her sending in her friends to do drivebys in here, to make fake PC's just to find out our business, and posting a web site up that they showed in her new channel to other players in which she wrote a scathing four page put down of our game followed by a live MPEG of someone getting fisted
[23:26] (@^ST1): nite Chad, I'll be posting notes on the web site fo what you miss
[23:26] (+Player8): hasta man
[23:26] *** Quits: Player9 (darkerwon@dm-36243.sympatico.ca) (Exit: uhg)
[23:26] (@^ST1): Scathing that should say
[23:26] (@^ST1): so let me just wrap it up to say that some players are sincerely ill and are on meds. Iím on sleep meds. Shit happens
[23:26] (+Player7): link? j/k
[23:27] (@^ST1): but like all things, you gotta know your limits and be honest
[23:27] (@^ST1): its taken down Doug ;p
[23:27] (+Player2): uh.. yeah.. about that... that's one of my little "Trey only assumptions" .. I mean I know folks have problems.. me especially and sure.. I'll let folks know "Iím having trouble with this" in hopes they have some kind of.. help..advice technique or just slack.. but problems don't give some one anymore rights then a person with out those problems.
[23:27] (+Player8): shit.. reminds me of VoE vs the 'Touch in the bad old Dalnet days
[23:27] (@^ST1): If it's under control then nothing is going on that makes it my problem
[23:28] (@^ST1): If something's going on with your meds that becomes my problem, its NOT under control. Just like if you were having to go to a job while medicated.
[23:28] (@^ST1): Either you can function or you canít
[23:28] (@^ST1): figure it out and fix it
[23:28] (+Player8): Basic life skills type stuff
[23:28] (@^ST1): precisely
[23:29] (@^ST1): and on a related note:

[23:29] (@^ST1): 7. DO NOT RP WHILE CHEMICALLY IMPAIRED: Do not ever RP drunk, stoned, or heavily medicated with something that makes you out of it. Severely sleep deprived may even subjectively qualify - if you are very tired, excuse yourself from the RP or tell an ST. Better yet, get a nap in ahead of time, if you have to be on and you already know you're sleepy.
[23:29] (@^ST1): We're not in the business of trying to figure out how coherent you are, and if you do something really stupid or obnoxious, IC or even OOC, while messed up, you're accountable for that. So please just don't even set yourself up in such a situation. "I was drunk/stoned, it shouldn't count" does not fly here.
[23:29] * Player8 facedesks
[23:29] (@^ST1): Yes?
[23:30] (+Player8): wholeheartedly agree.. Though I have been known to drink when i play D&D
[23:30] (@^ST1): online?
[23:30] (+Player8): HELL no
[23:30] (@^ST1): or TT
[23:30] (@^ST1): Ok then
[23:30] (@^ST1): If you come to my house drunk I can tell
[23:30] (@^ST1): and I can say Dude, you reek of Coors, don't play
[23:30] (+Player4): Coors.
[23:31] * Player4 snorts.
[23:31] (@^ST1): ;p
[23:31] (+Player8): ewh
[23:31] (+Player8): no
[23:31] (@^ST1): heee
[23:31] (@^ST1): Iím just saying
[23:31] (@^ST1): I donít want to have to figure out the health of people I cant even see
[23:31] (@^ST1): make sense?
[23:31] (@^ST1): just be here sober and medicated and rested and ready to go
[23:31] (@^ST1): simple
[23:31] (@^ST1): moving on
[23:32] (+Player8): I like WoD cause it engages my brain.... getting buzzed is counterproductive..

[23:32] (@^ST1): 8. KEEP YOUR CHARACTER INFO PRIVATE: Just don't even invite the chance for people to metagame by accident, by KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT. Don't sit in channel and discuss things OOC about your PC with other players.
[23:32] (@^ST1): I am sure we all like to believe that one another are honest, friendly people, but [a] some players aren't, sadly, and [b] some well meaning players are easily flustered and just have a hard time keeping stuff sorted out, and you just burden them by spilling info they shouldn't know, forcing them to have to be more diligent about ignoring it IC. So it's just better for everyone that you obey our rule about not discussing character information in the channel that is private.
[23:32] (@^ST1): Obviously this does not pertain to information that is public knowledge, such as your PC is known to be a teacher at Blot High School, or a lawyer or anyone with a job where their name is in the phone book for that function, for example. It also does not pertain to obvious and innocuous information (that can't be used by another player to harm your PC in some way) such as "my character is a girl" or "my character is a blonde."
[23:32] (@^ST1): Comments?
[23:33] (+Player8): when I feel the need to know what is on other's sheets i have no trust left. Iím done with the game at that point
[23:33] (@^ST1): Types of things you should shut up about in public include, for example: Where your PC lives IC. What your PC plans to do about (blot). How much money your PC makes and how they make it. What supernatural race your PC is. Quirks, habits, fears, phobias, derangements, or other weaknesses your PC has.
[23:33] (@^ST1): Where your PC plans to go tonight and whom they will meet up with (this is just a screaming invitation for players who were not involved and otherwise were not planning to go there, to butt into your scene to start crap with your PC). Weapons you carry. And so forth. If you need to discuss these with an ST, do it in message or a private OOC channel.
[23:33] * ^ST1 nods
[23:33] (+Player2): not really .. I mean.. don't tell anyone anything you don't want them to know... is kinda.. "Duuuuh"
[23:34] (@^ST1): well Trey you may think it's duh but how many times has someone new come in here lately and someone always goes "So what are you playing?" In the OOC room
[23:34] (+Player4): But it's good info if you're new to gaming.
[23:34] (@^ST1): what is good info if you are new?
[23:34] (+Player4): I made the mistake of being very open OOC about my mortal character when I started.
[23:34] (@^ST1): Oh. Yeah
[23:34] (+Player4): and it fucked her from the start.
[23:34] (+Player2): heh.
[23:34] (@^ST1): Its good to remind new players that some people on IRC are not so honest, or even MEAN to be honest but just OOC can't keep it straight
[23:35] (+Player8): there should be ways to find out all that stuff IC.. Eventually ... why RP if you can just ask?
[23:35] (+Player4): So I know it's redundant to all y'all that play games normally, but this is my first RP thing EVER-- and it's just good basic advice to cover, even if it is 'duh' for savvy folks.
[23:35] (@^ST1): that and you were running her with someone who was INFAMOUS for finding an excuse to horn in on anything you said OOC like "Iím going to the web with her tonight" so that player would show up there, and always intending to start shit
[23:35] (+Player2): well.. The trick is in figuring out what you "don't want them to know"
[23:35] (+Player4): I sort of got tricked, but I take responsibility for it, and I learned. ;)
[23:35] (@^ST1): anything a smart player can fuck you over with, you donít want them to know
[23:35] (+Player2): "That's a big one.. and if it's unclear then erring on the side of caution is wise"
[23:35] (@^ST1): anything they canít just see obviously, you donít want them to know
[23:36] (+Player8): well...
[23:36] (@^ST1): and thatís the end of the pre canned lecture. Any questions about this, earlier stuff, or even stuff you just happened to think of cuz of what I said?
[23:39] (+Player2): *ponders*
[23:39] (+Player8): still thinking about the last point
[23:40] (@^ST1): What about it?
[23:40] (@^ST1): The keeping your Poker hand to yourself bit?
[23:40] (+Player8): well, i havenít actually gamed with you all, so this may be a moot comment..
[23:40] (+Player8): but here it is anyways
[23:40] (@^ST1): go for it
[23:42] (+Player8): If you are going to have a "IC privacy" guideline, which i agree with totally, i think you have to pay attention to making sure that you can get info IC with a reasonable amount of effort
[23:42] (+Player4): Thanks babe.
[23:42] (+Player2): that's actually a fairly good point.
[23:42] (+Player8): a new character, for example, shouldnít have to move heaven and earth for a month just to fins a few clanmates
[23:42] (+Player8): find even
[23:43] (+Player8): or in the case of NWoD, Covenant members
[23:43] (@^ST1): Thatís dealt with in the Background
[23:43] (@^ST1): I don't approve PC's any more until you have some kind of mechanism built in to ensure you will be able to connect somehow
[23:43] (@^ST1): to keep that very thing from going wrong, actually
[23:44] (@^ST1): So yes, things you are ENTITLED to know, are another matter
[23:44] (@^ST1): but what often used to happen is people would run their mouths in OOC
[23:44] (@^ST1): then next thing they know some player has made a game move and has an IC excuse for it but we damned well know that he wouldnít have MADE that move if you hadnít shot off your mouth
[23:44] (@^ST1): its not a move they would have logged on and made, having NOT heard what was said
[23:45] (@^ST1): and in fact that kind of thing is what made me write this
[23:45] (+Player8): Iíve had abortive starts in games where the only way i could make connections is by info gleaned OOC.. and i couldnít come up with plausible ways to use that info IC
[23:45] (+Player8): shitty position to be in
[23:46] (@^ST1): Iím usually pretty damned good at finding an IC means to deal with those things
[23:46] (+Player8): but yea, you are paying attention to that issue so it's all good
[23:46] (@^ST1): its one of my strengths as an ST, I can play the Kevin Bacon game with any PC
[23:46] (@^ST1): So I would say if anyone who is trying to be good and keep a closed fist on their cards, is worried about being able to hook up IC, come see me or any ST and say something
[23:46] (@^ST1): we are MORE than happy to help you figure it out
[23:48] (+Player8): all you really need is a hook into the game and for someone to make that hook aware that he/she/it IS the hook\
[23:49] *** ^ST1 sets mode: +v Player2
[23:50] (@^ST1): Which I am pretty diligent about doing
[23:50] (+Player8): be careful
[23:50] (@^ST1): I think... i hope anyway, and please just be honest if I'm wrong, but I like to think the old players believe I do a pretty good job of keeping chars and stories connected
[23:50] (+Player8): i might get amazed ;)
[23:50] (@^ST1): amazed?
[23:51] (+Player2): Seems Player8 is jaded
[23:51] * Player2 has felt similar
[23:51] (+Player8): like you wouldnít believe Player2
[23:51] (+Player2): I know the feeling.
[23:52] (+Player2): My personal fav is when the ops have a falling out and go to war with each other..
[23:52] (@^ST1): Oh he's highly jaded. He used to op in some of the places that made me jaded
[23:52] (+Player2): It becomes truly Vampire-esq as they kill off or terrorize the opposing ST's "favored" pc's
[23:52] (@^ST1): Well I can't exactly say anything about that, Trey.... We came here because of a pretty bad OOC fight between Ops who were once close.
[23:53] (@^ST1): but at least we never did that shit. What was OOC stayed OOC.
[23:53] (+Player2): I remember the tale.
[23:53] (+Player7): And there has been some serious fights between many of us... I flipped out and left two years ago because me and Ice were getting pissed off with each other
[23:53] (+Player2): *nods* I gathered.. one of the reasons I stuck around.
[23:53] (@^ST1): Iím not proud of all that drama but sometimes things get too bad to put up with and people take advantage.
[23:53] * ^ST1 nods to Doug
[23:54] (@^ST1): Yeah... But you know, he went away for a while, talked bad about me for a bit, got it out of his system and came back LOL
[23:54] (+Player7): yep
[23:54] (@^ST1): And thatís the odd thing about this place, most of the people who get mad at me eventually realize, and come back :)
[23:54] (+Player7): Yeah, I was also like 16 when i left, getting past most of the fun end part of being a teenager... emotions ran too strong: P
[23:55] (@^ST1): That was hard for me. I actually get really upset when players get mad, because I Take pride in what we create here and I donít want to be like all those shitty horrible gamers we all cant stand
[23:55] (@^ST1): Yeah as a matter of fact Doug wasnít medication part of your drama back then? (Case in point)
[23:55] (@^ST1): you were having trouble finding something that worked and your moods went completely bat shit
[23:55] (+Player8): I honestly am here for 2 reasons...
[23:55] (@^ST1): Cuz Iím cute?
[23:55] (@^ST1): kidding
[23:55] (+Player7): not really, Medication was a mistake on part of my doctor and psychiatrist, it just made the situation about 5x worse
[23:55] (+Player8): well, 3 actually
[23:56] (@^ST1): what are they
[23:56] * Player2 Posts the Sign:
[23:56] (+Player2): "Please don't feed the Ego's"
[23:56] (+Player8): the most important are that despite all the bullshit Iíve endured, i still think i could have fun playing and possible STing again.. maybe , one day...
[23:56] * ^ST1 nods
[23:56] (+Player8): Ice was also very persuasive
[23:56] (@^ST1): I know nothing (grins)
[23:57] (@^ST1): He's a VOE refugee, if that helps explain to some of the old timers.
[23:57] (+Player7): I'm a VH refugee :D
[23:57] (@^ST1): mmhm
[23:57] (+Player2): VOE?
[23:58] (@^ST1): another channel
[23:58] (@^ST1): Vampyres of Europe
[23:58] (+Player2): natch
[23:58] (@^ST1): one of numerous sources for some of the behaviours that made our rules list so long :)
[23:58] (+Player8): long story short, a RL tabletop friend of mine and I dragged this channel out of FF stupidity bullshit ...
[23:59] (+Player8): and it seriously was not worth the 3+ years i put into it
[23:59] (+Player2): I was about to say.. "and then were gripped at"
Session Close: Wed Oct 19 00:00:00 2005

Session Start: Wed Oct 19 00:00:00 2005
Session Ident: #11thHourClassroom
[00:00] (+Player8): the whole channel and its at peak 70 players was really all about the 2 channel founders OOC romance..
[00:00] (+Player2): awe.. isn't that cute..
[00:00] * Player2 gags
[00:00] (+Player8): when that was admitted I bailed
[00:00] (+Player8): about 9 months later they split and the channel fell apart
[00:00] (@^ST1): wasn't one of them married too?
[00:00] (+Player2): I have no problem with the big wigs havin a little romance OOC and IC.. *eye's Ice*
[00:01] (@^ST1): like, to Someone ELSE?
[00:01] (+Player8): one of them still is AFAIK
[00:01] (+Player2): but .. a place for everything and everything in it's place ya know.
[00:01] (@^ST1): yeah. So this was like an adulterous romance on top of it
[00:01] (@^ST1): donít you just love IRC drahmah
[00:01] * ^ST1 eyes Trey
[00:01] (+Player2): not really.. I don't give a shit.
[00:01] (@^ST1): Something to say, dear?
[00:02] (@^ST1): I think what Shawn was implying was more than unlike here, the entire storyline and raison d'etre of VOE was to be bit players in the big story of those two humping each other for real.
[00:02] (@^ST1): like the other 68 people didnít count for jack shit
[00:02] (+Player2): *shrugs* "I have no problem with the Big wigs having romance IC .. OOC or whatever.. hell it can even factor into the game for all I care.. just as long as I get my screen time, attention and shit stays pretty clear and even.
[00:02] (+Player2): Which seems to be the case round these parts.. best I can tell.
[00:02] (+Player8): Yes.. i had entire storylines of months nulled when they threatened that
[00:02] (@^ST1): so why you lookin at me? ;p
[00:03] (@^ST1): Ice has... ISSUES, not Romance ;p
[00:03] (+Player8): characters hardly ever died or had seriously damaging events of any nature happen to them...
[00:03] (+Player2): well .. it is kinda romantic.. even tragedy can be truly romantic.
[00:04] (@^ST1): Well ok in the Victorian sense yeah
[00:04] (+Player8): I crafted my PC / NPC specifically to work over some WW canon metaplot and basically got told it would never happen
[00:04] (+Player8): just badness on badness
[00:04] (+Player2): or in the very real lovey dovey.. deep heart wrenching sense.
[00:04] (@^ST1): But I like to think we donít railroad the stories of other characters out of existence just to make the Ops PC's the star of everything
[00:05] (@^ST1): in the donít you just wanna slit your wrists and listen to Joy Division with her, sense ;p
[00:05] (+Player2): you don't.. though the ops and ST's have a far clearer picture and feel for what's going on..
[00:05] (+Player8): I get that impression.. which is why Iím coming out of exile to play
[00:05] (+Player2): some of the other PC's aren't quite as enlightened.. it shows from time to time.
[00:06] (@^ST1): I take your un retirement as a compliment, especially considering you havenít really seen us play yet, mostly taking me at my word and our OOC commiserating about the bad old days :)
[00:06] (+Player2): Yeah.. watch out mate.. Casey is a silver tongued devil.. but when that tongue turns into a lash.. watch yer self.
[00:07] (+Player2): It leaves marks.
[00:07] * ^ST1 ehems
[00:07] * Player2 jumps
[00:07] (@^ST1): He likes mar.... oh wow look, Elvis!
[00:07] (+Player2): Oh! .. *there* you are.
[00:07] * Player2 gets an autograph
[00:08] (+Player8): you know, I actually considered jumping ship for here a long time ago
[00:08] (+Player8): before i really knew anyone here
[00:08] (@^ST1): you did?? You never told me that lol
[00:08] (+Player8): like, 2 years ago maybe
[00:08] (@^ST1): holy crap lol
[00:08] (@^ST1): what, was I mean to you and made you not go? hehehe
[00:09] (+Player8): I was unable to approach it in the right way.. I was way too used to the stupidity in VoE
[00:09] (+Player8): In fact,.,
[00:10] (+Player8): i came in to lurk and watch and got banned
[00:10] (+Player8): Was for the best in retrospect
[00:10] (@^ST1): Fuck. What did you do??
[00:10] (+Player8): needed time off
[00:10] (+Player8): did nothing
[00:10] (@^ST1): I don't ban people for no reason ;p
[00:10] (+Player8): well ok, may have done a fly by
[00:11] (@^ST1): I do however have a peeve about lurkers because of all that crap that old players started about sending friends in here to make drama
[00:11] (@^ST1): yeah thatís prolly what did it. That 's a pet peeve of mine
[00:11] (+Player8): hoped in during a slow time, bailed , came back later
[00:11] (@^ST1): Wow. Well I guess it worked out okay in the end :)
[00:12] (+Player8): Probably a good thing. needed the time off to detox.. i would not have been good for the game at that point
[00:12] (@^ST1): So everything happens for a reason
[00:12] (@^ST1): Just making sure, last call, anyone have any more directly related to RP Workshop type questions left, instead of me and Shawn whining about crappy channels?
[00:13] (+Player8): lol
[00:13] * ^ST1 grins
[00:13] (+Player4): No ma'am.
[00:14] (@^ST1): Neph? Lud? Trey?
[00:14] (@^ST1): I think we lost some of the boys hours ago
[00:15] (+Player2): Nopers
[00:17] * Player2 extends a welcoming hand to Player8
[00:17] (+Player2): Welcome aboard.. for my part anyway.
[00:17] * Player8 accepts
[00:17] (@^ST1): ok break for gossip time then :)
[00:17] (+Player8): much appreciated
[00:17] (+Player2): Hope things work out for ya here.. look forward to gaming with you.
[00:18] (+Player8): likewise. looking forward to good games with good gamers in a new WoD
[00:19] (+Player2): Well I hope in time, I can rank on that "good gamers" list of yours. :)
[00:20] (@^ST1): anybody have any other requests for class topics?
[00:20] (@^ST1): Ive got like, 9 mapped out but open to requests
[00:20] (+Player8): keep IC IC, OOC OOC, and say something interesting once in a blue moon and your on it ;)
[00:21] (+Player5): Metagaming?
[00:21] (@^ST1): That wasn't covered tonight?
[00:21] (+Player2): *chuckles*
[00:21] (+Player5): kind of
[00:21] (@^ST1): well what did we not cover that you think needs it? Seriously
[00:21] (+Player2): Ooo.. how about, "How to complain correctly"
[00:21] (@^ST1): I kinda thought this was about metagaming partly :)
[00:22] (@^ST1): heheheheheheh Complain about what to whom?
[00:22] (+Player2): believe it or not.. it's.. kinda important.
[00:22] (+Player2): well.. how to complain to the ST about various things, problems, troubles etc.. sometimes folks get a burr up their bum and need to get some response if only.. "um.. deal with it"
[00:22] (+Player5): a player taking something, or improving something that doesn't make sense to the motivation of the character but makes sense mechanically
[00:23] (+Player5): like a falling humanity rating
[00:23] (+Player8): intelligent OOC conflict resolution...iím all for that
[00:23] (@^ST1): So how to VENT? Or how to lodge an actual real complaint?
[00:24] (@^ST1): and Neph those things would be dealt with at creation/approval, not sure precisely what you're after there
[00:25] (+Player2): what Inc said
[00:27] (@^ST1): Conflict resolution between players? Between player and ST?
[00:27] (+Player2): yes and well.. yes.
[00:28] (+Player2): *hmmmms* Remember the Scene in Saving Private Ryan.. in which the Captain said: "Pay attention private.. THIS is the correct way to bitch"
[00:29] (+Player2): Something like that.. What is the best way to approach an ST or other PC with a problem.. esp if one is unsure if saying something will only make the problem worse.
[00:29] (@^ST1): well I kinda consider that a no brainer but okay... it's like the same thing IRL. You stick to the Facts, for one. If it's an immediate problem (like if left unresolved may result in like, a PC's death or permanent ruin if not dealt with) then bring it up to an ST in message. If you are friendly enough with the player to mention it you can but I figure in your example you werenít
[00:29] (@^ST1): Well the way to make the problem worse is to whine about something thats partly your fault or you're accountable for
[00:30] (@^ST1): but if neither those things are true, it shouldnít make it worse
[00:30] (@^ST1): I'd also use Fair Fighting rules. You know what those are?
[00:30] (+Player7): no halo of the sun in 11thhourlounge...
[00:30] (+Player2): well what if it is true.. what if it's partially or even entirely one's own fault.. it's still a problem.
[00:31] * Player2 raises an eyebrow
[00:31] (+Player2): Fair fighting rules?
[00:31] (+Player2): Those still exist?
[00:31] (+Player8): you know.. i think that once a player looses trust in her ST, the player or the ST needs to go
[00:31] (+Player8): if you have that, you can get things sorted out
[00:31] (+Player8): if not, there will always be problems
[00:33] (+Player2): well folks don't always "start" trusted.
[00:33] (@^ST1): ok so how to bring up something thatís kinda partly or even mostly your own fault but you're still stabby about it and want to talk?
[00:33] (+Player2): That can be part..
[00:34] (+Player2): There are also legitimate complaints, or even, suggestions or just plain.. "Why is it like this" questions that can cause...turmoil.
[00:37] (@^ST1): Well like I said the best way is Fair Fighting Rules. And yeah they still exist.
[00:37] (@^ST1): Don't be accusatory, and always hold the other people in a higher place, meaning that donít assume they are intentionally being a pain in the ass.
[00:37] (@^ST1): if you do both those things I really donít think it can go wrong
[00:40] (+Player2): *nods after a bit*
[00:40] (@^ST1): is this just pre emptively for later or do we need to talk? LOL
[00:41] (+Player2): Actually only reason I brought it up now is because I don't have any complaints :)
[00:42] (+Player2): so I guess it's just pre emptively for later.
[00:42] (+Player2): I'm not a fan of making the same mistake twice.
[00:44] * ^ST1 chuckles
[00:45] (@^ST1): well to your credit you are one of the very few players I've actually seen take advice and run with it and improve, instead of quitting the game and sulking and making it about me being a bitch
[00:45] (@^ST1): sadly the latter is the usual reaction
[00:46] (+Player2): thank you. *bows*
[00:47] (+Player2): In the end.. it comes down to value. I like my ego.. but I'm not about to let it ruin something good.
[00:48] (@^ST1): Well I like to be the kind of ST people can talk to
[00:48] (+Player2): Doesn't mean I don't think your a bitch. *smiles fondly*
Session Close: Wed Oct 19 01:38:19 2005